Help with Subcool Soil Variation

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by Gr8tful, Nov 16, 2011.

  1. Thanks again for the info!

    I have read that the PH of the water is immaterial in organic setups, via Elaine Ingrahm Soil Microbiology. Her point was that if you have a balanced mix of microbes in the soil they will always have the PH balanced. So you could water with a PH of 8.5 and the microbes will get the PH right. Is it necessary to adjust the PH of your water? If so, what should the PH of the water normally be?

    Thanks again everyone for your input.
  2. I went back and checked the math, if anyone can glance it over to see if it makes sense it is appreciated. Seems like I was way off with the Azomite which could be causing lockout?

    Subs Recipe
    8 large bags of high quality organic potting soil with coco and Mycorrhizae
    25-50 lbs. of organic worm castings
    5 lbs. of Blood meal 12-0-0
    5 lbs. Bat guano 0-5-0
    5 lbs. Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
    ¾ cup Epsom salt
    1 cup Sweet lime (Dolomite)
    ½ cup Azomite ( Trace element)
    2 Tbs. powdered Humic acid

    Smaller Conversion
    10 Gallons of Base Soil
    8 Cups of Castings
    20 TBS Guano
    20 TBS Bone
    20 TBS Blood
    1 1/2 TBS Epsom Salt
    2 TBS Domolite Lime
    1 TBS Azomite
  3. I doubt azomite is causing lock out, the only concern that I'm aware of in using azomite is the aluminum content. I guess it's possible that your humic acid is chelating the azomite and you have a touch of aluminum toxity. But given the amounts of each in a large volume of soil that possibility seems slight.

    Have you done any research on growing figs? MIW
  4. Aluminum certainly could be a issue as well as calcium.

    Aluminum would lock out Phosphorous and other minerals.

    Based on his ratio's, there is a bunch more lime and then oyster shell in my soil mix, both which are rich in calcium. Too much calcium then locks out magnesium and potassium.

    I was really surprised his mix did not contain any Potassium? Wouldn't the plant need Potassium?

    Azomite Breakdown - AZOMITE® USA Mineral Analysis

    I have 3 books on Figs here that I am working my way through :)
  5. #25 ForbinsAscent, Nov 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 18, 2011
    Yes the concept is that you won't need a ph meter if you're running a fully organic system. The nicest 'no ph' organic plants around here will still have a twisted leaf, or some strangeness usually, but it is very marginal often around the bottom of the plant.

    But there are a lot of aspects to this until you can say that PH is 'no issue' and we still give it constant regard although it is not as horribly unforgiving as hydro or synthetic growing.

    Home composting is a huge plus if you can find some comfrey leaves, other dyna ic accumulators, and yard waste, throw it in a garbage bag (loosely tied) for amonth, it will decompose and this is a solid compost base.

    same goes for vermicomposting. If you do it this way, you'll have less nutrients and less ph issues to worry about. these compost base you don't need to add as many amendments, and they are a solid buffer for your plants if you do choose to top dress or water with nutrients.

    While ACT's shouldn't be used so frequently, I like to oxygenate my water, and add some humic acid at the very least. I don't see the harm in activating the water with some organic nutrients every time any how.

    if any of that made sanse i dont know. But i'll tell you 1 thing from my experience (just harvested 2nd all organic harvest), if youre concerned about nutrient and ph issues like I was, grow your plants big and make sure you have a lot of foliage before you do anything. before you add nutrients. before you transplant. before you switch to bloom. The excess amount of foliage (bottom leaves barely recieve light) ensures you'll be on the path to full absorption and 'coping' no matter what happens to your plant. Only thing is it will dry out faster so keep her watered. But as I see it that's an advantage too because excess moisture leads to budrot. :smoke:

    of course its easier said than done and i ended up removing the lower/inner foliage that amounted to approximately 50% of total foliage over a month of pruning. WOW that's a lot of foliage.
  6. your plant in the picture doesn't have enough foliage to really cope with the deficiency/burn imo.......
  7. Great points ForbinsAscent.

    Since this was my first time from going from 3 gallons to 1 gallon pot sizes I wonder if that factors into the equation at all?
  8. you have a magnesium deficiency, along with a phosphorus deficiency. they may not be deficient, though.

    I still say that gr8ful just didnt let his freshly mixed soil sit long enough - or at all. It was used right after being mixed and very hot.

    Benn there, done that, seen it happen.

    just my .02c anyhow.

  9. I would say yes definitely, but why did they look great for 4 weeks in the mix and then start showing all the issues. If the soil was too hot they would have shocked right away?

    I went ahead and confirmed via weight the measurements here is the revised amounts for the last mix I posted...

    1 cup 11 tbs Blood Meal
    1 cup 10 TBS Guano
    1 Cup 2 TBS Bone Meal
  10. Ok, if that is what your plant looks like then there are more pressing needs than worrying about trace minerals like Magnesium, Calcium, and certainly Aluminum!

    I will say for a fact that Subcool's soil is a decent mix but not the incredible "grow all" that people make it out to be on this (or any other) forum.

    I will also say that Subcool's soil is meant for people growing either:
    A) Outdoors (from spring to fall = plenty of light)
    B) HID Lighting (Plenty of Lumens and watts)

    Subcool's soil is good but if you are growing under CFL's then your plants probably will not be able to metabolise all the nutrients that were added in the first place.

    Chances are, you are Overwatering which has caused the leaves to yellow (Chlorosis) (also look at the main stem in that picture, it looks "saturated").

    Basically, stop ADDING nutrients to your plants thinking that it will solve your problem. Allow the plants to grow on their own.

    1) Allow the soil to dry before watering.
    2) Give your plants more light!
    3) Stop fucking around with them and just ALLOW them to grow :D

  11. If I had to guess, I would say that it might have taken the 4 weeks for the plants to really establish thier root systems, and at that point they started really taking in alot more of the "hot" soil.

    When the same thing happened to me, it definetly took some time before the same thing showed.

    I planted other plants into the same mix that had allowed to "cool down" for 6 weeks, and they came out perfect.

  12. That is a valid point. I would even venture to guess that at 4 weeks the soil becomes stronger as the organics begin to breakdown versus on day 1 of the mix. After 6 months of composting the soil it would really begin to cool down via leeching outdoors etc.
  13. I dont think that the soil becomes "stronger", but there are way more roots at 4 weeks, vs. the first week when the plants looked fine. At the 4 week mark, I had the same thing happen with hot soil. The roots have now filled in and are taking in that hot soil, thus starting problems.

    I dont know if you neccessarily need 6 months of composting, but of course it wouldnt hurt - if you can wait that long.

  14. #34 poppybgood, Nov 23, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 23, 2011
    I am by no means an indoor organic expert, but I've grown a lot of herb. I've watched a lot of Sub's videos, including his "supersoil" vid. Just my opinion here, but I believe if you cut everything he adds to his base soil by 50% except for the cal/mag and trace element additives you would be closer to the bullseye for indoor container growing.
    I grow mostly guerilla style outdoors, but I would be hesitant to mix that concoction 50/50 doing an in-ground grow . You can always add as needed, but you can't take away.

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