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Help troubleshooting weak tincture prep.

Discussion in 'Medical Marijuana Usage and Applications' started by biomatica, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. One last thing is perplexing me at this point. The cannabis I'm currently working with will absolutely rail me, to very unpleasant freak out territory if I take 1 large bong draw on .1g cannabis of a medium one, but I just took the oil corresponding to 1.2 g decarbed cannabis under the tongue and last night the same amount to the ass (held for 10 minutes) and by neither route did the oil equal the effect of 1 medium bong draw.

    There are extraction-based possibilities that could account for this, namely that I did not decarb much of the THCA to THC, but I don't think that holds water if the graph you posted is accurate. As I was around 235 for 35 min, I should have decarbed a little over 50% of the material. However, the dosage of smoked material is 120-fold lower than that of my sublingual/rectal dosages. So I still should have had a much stronger effect with the oil even with a 50% decarb.

    According to this site (https://www.theevergreenmarket.com/bioavailability-and-you/), smoking has a bioavailability of 30-65%, sublingual dosing of 30-50%, so I don't think better bioavailability of smoking can account for the difference, especially considering that up to 50% of smoked THC gets degraded, though if it is being degraded to CBN (which seems likely given how quickly oxidation occurs during combustion), then it may not be a 50% loss in subjective "overall alteredness".
     
  2. I get about the same "stone" value and duration from Smoking herb as I do with an eyedropper of good tincture.
    Same with Transdermal from plunging my bare hands in Tincture. LMAO (got way more then I bargained for)
    Intense but short lived.

    Rectal seems to be part way between smoking and edible as far as duration but only half the intensity of stone compared to edible. Since your not taking advantage of the livers function of converting Delta9 to 11hydroxy I don't think you'll get the intense mega stone a true edible gives per gram or fraction of.

    BNW
     
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  3. My experience is that tinctures under the tongue don't work very well for me.
    I have serious doubts about what fraction of a 1 mL dose would actually be absorbed under the tongue. It's hard to imagine all 1 mL entering the tongue blood vessels. Also hard to imagine that those vessels will selectively remove cannabinoids from oil.
    Smaller volumes, like a few drops, I can absorb a bit, but for me, the swallowed part, which is an edible, is what does the job.

    If 0.1 g smoked medicates you, then 1.2 g should've given you couch lock for a whole day, so something is very wrong.
    If it's the decarb that's wrong (ovens are flakey) this will fix it:
    https://ardentcannabis.com/decarboxylation-myths/
     
  4. Okay, I had a roller coaster of a night last night that will go down in the record books for both my sister and I... And also probably my MOM inadvertantly lol. Probably a little similar to BNW's experience with plunging his hands into tincture, but probably a little worse... you'll see why...

    What it boils down to is me making one of the worst scientific mistakes of my life. You should never change two variables at once, and I did just that. A) I decarbed for 2 hours at 235 instead of 35 minutes. B) After holding the oil under my tongue (as I have been doing), I swallowed it to try to squeeze a little more effect out of it as most websites will tell you that oral bioavailability is actually less than sublingual or rectal or smoking.

    I was originally holding a bit under my tongue and then spitting, but then I realized it wasn't hitting me as much as I'd like. I started swallowing. So I had taken maybe "25" mg under the tongue and spit, and then another "25" under the tongue and then swallowed. I use quotations, because previously my dosage obviously wasn't anywhere near 50 mg when I had taken that much. I started feeling really great like 10-30 minutes in. I was getting a little nervous because I knew that the early onset was probably due to the sublingual effect, so I was worried what was in store for me an hour later. I was quite sedated and relaxed, BUT... then like 1 hour after I swallowed I felt myself heading up at a rate I was surprised by and uncomfortable with.

    My heart was racing and I felt pressure in my chest and left arm. I tried to wait it out for like 15 minutes, but I just kept getting higher and higher and my physical symptoms were not going anywhere. The first thing I did was make myself purge in case there was anything else still in my stomach, but I knew that most of it was already in my blood and if not there, then at least in my intestines by now. I took some phenibut to calm down (a "supplement" that basically behaves similar to any benzodiazepine by directly stimulating GABA receptors), but that has a long onset of action of around 2 hours.

    I knew from when I had researched this when having a similar, less intense experience previously that when taken in "overdose" quantities, cannabis can increase your risk of heart attack. So I popped an aspirin and asked my sister to drive me to the ER (we live together). So she drove me up there and I was starting to feel like I was plateauing so I was like "maybe I don't need to go in" so we sat in the parking lot again for a while, but then I felt myself coming up again (I had swallowed 3 separate doses of around 8 mg each to make up that 25 mg swallowed dose) and the cardiac symptoms started again. So I went in. At this point I was shaking like crazy and could barely walk.

    Initially, my nurse was pretty condescending and acting really judgmental, but she took me back and put me in a bed. She wasn't giving me any water because she said I needed to pee for a drug test prior to getting a drink, but my mouth was so dry I felt like I was going to choke on my throat. Eventually she gave me like a foam swab with water. They did an EKG. They found my murmur which I've always had, but nothing else. I was apparently low on potassium because of when I purged, so she gave me some potassium tabs. Gross.

    While I was laying there, I started coming up once again due to the last dose of oral cannabis I had taken. All my muscles started twitching and got really tight. My left arm was killing, but apparently all my specs were A OK. Around this time, the phenibut kicked in and I mellowed out toot sweet. I started wishing I hadn't gone to the ER, but I was there to stay. It was around 10pm at this time. My sister and I started joking around and having a good ole' time. I can't remember a whole lot, but I am sure I was exhibiting every classic stoned stereotype in the book and my nurse started smiling and coming around.

    The billing agent came in and was kind of askin what's goin on. We live in a state that just legalized medical marijuana this election cycle, and when she figured out what was going on and that I was feelin better she was like "Hey, I actually been through this before with my brother, so you don't have to justify it to me! We're actually thinkin about openin a dispensary, ya know?!" I was so high that I was hallucinating on the back of my eyelids whenever I shut my eyes. The whole world was spinning. My sis and I were joking and laughing almost non-stop for like an hour and then we started getting tired. They eventually gave my sister a spare room with a bed so she could sleep. I went to sleep in my bed. Eventually we went home around 3 AM.

    It's now 2:30 PM the next day. My last dose of cannabis was at 8:30 PM yesterday, and I am still stoned. Not in a scary way, but not really in a good way either. I'm just exhausted, out of it, and pretty much a bump on a log for all intents and purposes. Still a little nauseous, but with the munchies at the same time.

    What a fuckin' night... If I had just changed 1 variable, either the longer decarb or the swallowing, I would have been a lot better off, but instead I made a stronger product and probably converted a lot of it to 11-OH-THC so I got a quadruple wammy...

    Come to find out this morning that I left my phone there, and they called my emergency contact (AKA my mom, who does not live with my sister and I) at fucking FIVE AM IN THE MORNING to inform her I had left my phone. So then my mom was worried like crazy until I woke up and she talked to me.
     
  5. Glad your OK. Not surprising what amounted to a triple dose sent you flying hard. This why we always advise people to go very slow when working out an initial dose. Even very experienced users like myself can be taken unaware and wind up way higher then we aimed for.

    It's likely the swallowed portion that eventually kicked in and did the major part of why you got so damned stoned. Something else to be aware is eating while on edibles. It only seems to hit me really hard if I eat a large meal like Thanksgiving dinner when I make a real glutton of myself. It's like a major portion of the dose is hanging around in my liver waiting to go full on active. Either that or the sudden demand for blood from my stomach leaves my brain short of juice and all at once I get overwhelmed. Dizzy, in a dead sweat, vision blurred, auditory is blurred as well if that makes sense.

    If I don't find a place to lay down I'll be in real trouble and likely keel over on my own. Once down flat the symptoms vanish in a couple of minutes and as long as I stay prone I'm OK. Could be a combination of the blood pressure meds I'm on and cannabis as the BP meds do tend to keep my numbers 30 points lower but I've not been able to substantiate that thought with various net searches.

    My own wife has asked a couple of times if I want or need medical intervention but I keep reminding myself it's just Cannabis and nobody has ever died as a direct result of being really whacked on the stuff.

    CBD oil is reported as taking the edge off an extremely high dose as does sniffing some fresh ground black pepper. Some say even eating a black pepper corn or 2 will lighten the impact.

    BNW
     
  6. Okay, so folks, I have succeeded in creating a medicine I can dose sublingually and have pain relief without causing me gastrointestinal upset or smoke harming my throat (its really sensitive).

    I broke down and bought the Nova Decarboxylator. After decarb finished, I ground my bud and infused 2.7g flower in 15 ml medium chain triglyceride (MCT) coconut oil for 1 hour at 200 degrees F. So... if we estimate on the high end of the spectrum that my buds were 25% THC by dry weight (I know this is probably not the case, but just to illustrate the theoretical maximum), the coconut oil would contain 2.7g decarbed flower*0.25g THC/g decarbed flower=675 mg/15 ml= 45 mg THC/ml infused oil. If my buds are only 10% THC by dry weight, then its 18 mg/ml. So my infused oil is somewhere between 18 mg/ml and 45 mg/ml.

    After an hour of infusing, I withdrew a little bit and put 6 drops under the tongue (I measured how much volume 6 drops is and its around 110 microliters). Within 5 minutes I was questioning if I was getting a buzz or if it was just placebo. By 10 minutes I knew I was feeling something, and by 15 minutes I was doin pretty dandy and the effect was unmistakeable. Since I took 110 ul, I took somewhere between 0.11ml * (18 mg to 45 mg/ml)= 1.8 to 5 mg which is a pretty low dose. This makes sense, because I am a lightweight when I smoke too, even though I medicate nightly.

    110 ul is 1/136 of the total amount of oil I made, so this is going to last me a LONG time even if I decide to up my dose in the future.

    My only complaint is that it's a little too edgy for what I like. I think this is because the decarb is so perfect with the Ardent Nova that barely any THC is converted to CBN. I put my oil with flowers back into the oven at 205 degrees F, and I'm going to leave it for another hour or two to try to oxidize some of my THC to CBN.
     
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