Help plant got sudden wilt

Discussion in 'Hydroponic Growing' started by Cptrips, Jan 27, 2014.

  1. My ak-48 ( day 23 in flower) went from a robust healthy plant to sudden wilt over night. What causes this and is there any thing I can do to bring her back? I have flushed (24 hrs 7.5ml h202 with 10 ml Flora Kleen/gallon) then drained and refilled with water with tea( 1 cup/gallon.) 24 hrs later the leaves are drying out and falling off.
    I grow RDWC in 5 gallon bucket with 5 gallon control bucket. The air stone and top ring were both working, Water level was good, ph 6.0. ppm 900. Roots are a light beige and don't smell.
    "And if the thunder don't get you, then the lightning will"


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  2. The only time I had this was growing in a top feed setup and from what I can work it's root rot. Roots should be nice and white not beige. Haven't had the same problem since I went to coco :)Sent from my C6903 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
  3. #3 nugz420, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2014
    What were you running before the tea and water? ppm and ph of the tea and water after you added them?
          I have never grown in hydro but if you were running normal nutes before the tea and water I would guess the tea is not supplying the plant with what it needs.Maybe a bad brew? what did you use to ph the tea and water, would it kill off the bacteria in the tea?
             I know organic soil grows tea is used to replenish the micro-herd to help break down the soil components into usable food for the plant.I don't see how a tea would be useful in a hydro grow with only water,as the micro-herd from the tea would have nothing to break down for food besides what was in the tea ,to grow the micro-herd.I could be way off just my thoughts as a former water only soil grower.
    Edit: If you could point me towards info about using teas with hydro so I can read up it would be appreciated. :smoke:
  4. calibrate your meter, up your airpump power, check your res temps. hopefully you can pull something together.
    don't shake the tree when the fruit aint ripe.
  5. #5 Cptrips, Jan 27, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2014
    [SUB]  Thanks all,[/SUB]
    [SUB]Nugz, heres a link to making and using tea in hydro The tea adds no ppm and I ph everything to 6.0 except to flush. But this looks like a stranglehold on the plant. It happens so fast the leaves don't even change color. [/SUB]
    [SUB]I use 2 part Black Label as base, Snow storm, Crystal Burst, Nirvana (after week 3, before I use the tea.) add Gravity at week 4. So I had just switched from tea to Nirvana on her last feed 5 days prior. The ph was still at 6.0 and the ppm was 900 before I flushed. I run the top feed and the airstone in the bucket 24/7 with 5 watts for 2 gallons of water.[/SUB]
    [SUB]I cut off a lower branch and then cut a piece of it length-wise. Its dark green in the middle. I thought it should be white. What could cause that? Im pretty sure that must be the problem. Added pics of branch.  [/SUB]
    [SUB]" One man gathers what another man spills"[/SUB]

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  6. Was it waaaay too hot in there? What about your water temp? Sent from my SPH-L720 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
  7. Temps never got above 85 and only then for about 1/2 hr late in day. Most of time 76 during day and 60 at night. Water temps 75-65. Temp did get down to 52 couple of nights before this happened. Heater unplugged that night. Roots don't look or smell cooked.
  8. #8 bongboi, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2014
    using tea in dwc is a myth created to cure root rot and it looks like it gave u root rot HAHAHAHA. j/k :cool:
    but really root rot can only be solved by adding more oxygen to the water which is why the roots are rotting in the first place (things that sit in water will rot/decompose)
    u might need more water. 2 gal is low even with top feed u should be running 4-5 gal ie full bucket and top her off whenever she gets low
    remember roots need oxygen leaves need CO2 B)
    and flush every 2 weeks
  9. #9 Cptrips, Jan 28, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2014
    Wouldn't root rot cause a slower death? And is that what I'm seeing in the stem? Also I thought there is suppose to an area between the bottom of the net pot and the water level. That area would have high humidity and feed the roots?
    Again, thanks to all for looking and the comments/help.
    " The bus came by and I got on, that's when it all began"
  10. dont stress if you did everything properly its probably just shocked.
    Only other possibility is the tea
  11. dont stress if you did everything properly its probably just shocked.
    Only other possibility is the tea
  12. roots are supposed to sit in the water. with soil grows the soil holds water for a day or two but with dwc there is nothing to hold water for the plant and she will dry out fast. overwatering of a plant will cause it  to wilt and die same with dwc and low dissolved oxygen (DO) level. i dont use teas but hear mixed reviews about it the only "tea" i use is florablend which is composted materials but gnat love it too
  13. #13 Dro Smoe, Jan 30, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2014
    I definitely don't see this as a root rot issue IMO.. Root rot certainly isn't an over night kinda thing IME. Perhaps its coincided with root rot NOW (pic of the roots please?) but it looks to me like an under/over watering sort of issue for that to happen over night.. OR you brewed that tea incorrectly and it was bad at the time of application perhaps?

    Drop the H202 - all that you successfully did with that was kill the bacteria in the tea (if you made it correctly) and leave a whole bunch of organic matter in there to decay.. and this WILL lead you to root rot etc.. It's hard to tell from the pics, but I don't see much spotting or "burn" like symptoms to signify root rot .. How does the root zone smell now?

    As bongboi said, 2 gals is super low even with a top feed and IMO top feed isn't even necessary. You should be at more like 3.5 gallons! I personally like to keep it an inch above the bottom of the net pot, and I top off when I'm about 1-2" below (about a day or so - age dependent) . . .

    One thing I will correct (no offense bongboi :bongin: )... You really shouldn't be flushing every two weeks, many people only flush at the end.. I like to flush when at transitional and final stages myself. If you have to flush every two weeks than you're doing something wrong (overfeeding most likely). When you drain your res you are successfully killing the beneficial bacteria (bacillus subtilis etc) forcing them to recolonize with every refill (stumbled upon this thanks to @[member="TheAnswer121"] )..
    The lack of bacteria decreases the plant's ability to fight off disease etc..

    Edit: I initially ph to 5.2/5.4 and let it rise to around 6.0/6.2 until I bring it back down with add backs. In this manner you'll get all the necessary elements when you meet their ph requirements.

    View attachment 1362886
  14. beneficial bacteria are less important in dwc systems because the roots are suspended in the nutrient mixture, whereas with soil the beneficial bacteria and fungi form a symbiotic relationship with the plant in the root zone to aid nutrient and water uptake. but to a certain extent, this is correct. I don't flush everytime I replace nutrients, but I do replace the entire soup every 2 weeks or so, while topping off in between. it's important to replace the soup because different strains will use different amounts of the micro and macro nutrients at different rates. so your tds or ec might be at the correct values, but your plant could still be taking in nutrients at a less than optimal rate. if you have some way to re-inoculate your solution then you don't have to really worry too much about the issues with flushing. however I wouldn't use a compost tea for it.
    anyways, OP, if you have some update photos of the root zone and the plant, maybe we could lock down exactly what's going on now that its been a couple days. if your plant is still alive, that is.
    I think you're a little confused? We're not talking about the Mycorrhizae class of bacteria bro.. They couldn't even survive in a synthetic grow as they are intolerant to salts. They'd be no assistance anyways as synthetic ferts are already in a usable form, while organics require different types of Mycorrhiza to further process the nutrients to make them available etc... Google bacillus subtilis and you'll further understand what I was referring to. 
    I know what you're saying about individual nutrient levels not being testable but so long as you're topping with a base nute you get away with it just fine. What you're saying is basically the "grow tip" at the bottom of any fert regimen and I too followed that for a while, (until advice from @Theanswer121) but its not necessary. The only time I'll dump the whole batch is if the girls are exhibiting deficiencies. Yes you could inoculate with something like a heisenberg tea (most certainly NOT a compost tea - organics and hydroponics don't mix well as you and I know - the OP of course may not) but there's really no need to go through all the work of draining, mixing etc.. Give it a shot, you'll be suprised! 
  16. ahha yeah but I don't think subtillis would help with OP's issue. nor does it really help with root rot. to eliminate root rot you would need some kind of enzyme to break down the anaerobic pathogens that cause things like root rot, adding more bacteria even if they're bennies would not do much I don't think.
    and I've seen tons of answer121's posts and learned a lot from him, but I've found from my own experience that simply adding back nutrients, even if they're just bases, doesn't necessarily show deficiencies, but has the potential to slow growth at least. however, the results are soo minor that I don't flush each time I restock nutrients like a lot of people say to do, nor do I replace the res every single week. I just do it when I feel my plant is ready to bridge a huge gap in total dissolved solids, like lets say one res fill I have it at 500 ppm and am slowly increasing concentration with growth, once I reach about 1200 ppm i'll go ahead and replace the whole res. It's also a way that I keep track of exactly what's going into my res, I'm kind of OCD like that :D  plus my plants seem to love it when they have a fresh batch of soup to drink from, I feel like the most growth I get is the day after I change out the reservoir, but maybe that's just me.
    Also, I inoculate my res with bennies, and all I have to say is that bacterial additives smell like, for lack of better description, smell like a fishy cooch.
  17. #17 Dro Smoe, Feb 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2014
    Nah I wasn't implying that it would help with his particular issue in any way, it was simply a reply to bongboi as he had stated to be sure to flush bi-weekly.. IMO the best treatment for root rot is prevention! lol..  Light proof container, temps < or = 68F and plenty of air - 1+ watt per gallon.
    Yea I do agree with occasional res changes, just as little as possible is my school of thought as it kills the bacterial colony etc. I personally don't inoculate, dont really need to as I let the soup go now a days and only change during transitional. As we know, it takes all kinds of kinds my friend! These little differences are what help us to learn from one another, gotta love this place! 
    So, is the OP's gal still livin or what??? LoL :smoke:
    Edit: Just for general knowledge -  Trichoderma and Bacillus have proven to be excellent preventative measures for fusarium with tomato's in egypt.. Check this out
  18. i like that 1+ watt per gallon for air, I've actually never heard that before. although for me personally I try to keep it #gal x 10 = L/min air. obviously that's overkill, but I like it like that :)  in terms of prevention, I have relatively high temps, and want to eventually get a water chiller but for now the frozen bottles work...anyways I use an enzyme supplement that basically makes it impossible to get root rot because this stuff just eats all the bad stuff up basically. great product.
    and yeah yeah update is needed
  19. #19 Dro Smoe, Feb 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2014
    Yea I luckily have an older home with a cold leaky basement .. My temps stay a consistent 66-68F this time of year, but I'll require a chiller in the summer myself. I've used the water bottles but they're honestly more of a pita than anything. Don't get me wrong they work (as you know), but they just needed to be swapped too much for my work schedule.

    Enzyme product huh? Sounds like hygrozyme.. Another enzyme product that breaks down organic material giving them more to eat etc.. It gets great reviews and I'd like to give it a shot but it's expensive as hell, and not warranted just yet.. I know it's very effective for recycling hempy perlite - I still have about 4 cu. ft waiting for a recycle so maybe I'll break the bank lol
  20. Hey Everybody,
    I took her down  a couple days ago. The roots looked good with new white growth throughout, probably from sitting in plain water and Heisenberg tea. The roots didn't smell bad and the ph  and ppm had not moved much.
    I have moved water levels to 3 gal in veg (1 1/2" in basket) still top feeding. Plants are really digging this.
    2.5 gal in flower about 1/2" below basket , stopped top feeding and adding second air stone to res. Plants are happy so far.
    I still think the plant's problem was she stopped transpiring. All fluids from roots to stems, leaves, ect. stopped moving. I didn't see any signs of fungi or fusarium. And even though the pith was green, I don't know if that happened before or after death. I have had plants with sick roots but still managed to finish (with small buds.) This is something different.
    Thanks Again To All,
    "When you get confused just listen to the music."

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