ok, so lets just say for imaginative thinking purposes that heaven hell and pergatory do exist, and you do in fact have a soul that leaves ur body upon death. god supposedly created man in his image, and obviously implanted a belief system into our brains in our early stages that there was indeed a god, probably because being that god would be the only being before life was created, he was probably pretty lonely n wanted some love, so some people love and worship and talk to him so this helps god with his loneliness problem and for those who love him and accept christ as their savior, a beautiful heaven awaits. but if god is all loving it wouldnt make sense that he'd send all the good hearted non believers strait to hell for not believing, so perhaps all those people go to pergatory is it possible that pergatory is just a buncha atheist ghosts wondering the world on a different dimension? haha just a thought, i think it'd be pretty cool to wonder the world after death as long as you had a buncha like minded people to chill with when you werent fuckin with whoopie goldberg or learnin how to kick cans in the subway
We'll actual all the non-believers who are good would be the unbaptisted virtuous pagans and they go to Limbo which is the first circle of hell.
Thats a dope idea. Then it wouldn't be so bad if you became a ghost. Side note. If God is all loving and forgiving then why is there a hell or pergatory. If He forgives all then hell would not exist but since it does in the Christians eyes then God is a deciever meaning God is not all perfect but false.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? - Epicurus top ten favorite quotes.
i think theres a catch to the god is all forgiving thing god is all forgiving, if your willing to confess your sins and seek forgiveness, if u dont ask for forgiveness god wont give it to you at least thats how i see it
[quote name='Rhythm of Life']Thats a dope idea. Then it wouldn't be so bad if you became a ghost. Side note. If God is all loving and forgiving then why is there a hell or pergatory. If He forgives all then hell would not exist but since it does in the Christians eyes then God is a deciever meaning God is not all perfect but false.[/quote} Ah, but hell and purgatory are organized by gods love, or as boethius would say god=being=the good, and since for the christians god is love you know. As for hell god forgives those who seek forgiveness, those who have no remorse for their sins go to hell. It has to do with man being in the image and stuff, the further we stray from god the further away from being human, and so the further into hell you end up. (well not a physical hell really, but it's all very nicely organized by Dante if you want) and definitely still perfect within the Christian system god is everything, everything is god at least in the sense that god is the source of everything, but since god is perfect everything else can't be or else it would have to be god and not everything else. You can find all that in the neoplatonist as early christian theology is pretty much synonymous with that system. Mostly it's in augustine and beothius though.
so youre going the ol' catholic route eh? i guess the mere fact that i cant swallow that logic proves how religious debate is useless.
I don't know if just because you can't swallow it that it immediately becomes invalid. I admit that in a secular world the religious debate is a messy one, however the theology of Christianity is very well structured and the arguments are logically sound within the neoplatonic tradition. Which is why it was widely accepted by many intellectuals through out history. The modern debate seems to give more weight to quantified fact rather then the human faculty of reason. Whose to say that all the principles of science are correct, they maybe a very practical and fairly precise means of explaining many things. Doesn't necessarily mean science is perfect does it? Then if this is true it all comes down to a matter of where one chooses to rest their faith and what they value more.
^^ oh yea i was just saying that petty debate wont change anyone's deep-rooted perceptions. doesnt mean theyre wrong or right.
I'm not arguing for either being right or wrong either just voicing my thoughts that the modern religious debate is rather uninformed for the most part. I go to university in a strange program and the philosophy that we've studied this year has progressed from socrates and plato right into the early christian philosophers all the way until Dante's divine comedy in 1300. I'm just defending the fact that christianity is not a ridiculous outdated belief in some supreme being, it's actually very well defined and intelligent system that when one studies it has basically nothing that is not coverd. Of course though the writers of christian theology wrote for a society where the belief in god was common place and it was pretty much absurb to be athiest. Despite that though the system could still be very effective at creating just and good people, however the education and mindset required for that are rare at least in our western secular society.
sorry for the double post but quick aside we should definitely rename this thread the inferno(hell), purgatorio, and paradiso just sounds nicer
It wuold definitely have it's ups and downs, just depends on the type of things you could achieve, if your suppose to just wait out the end of time that could be kind of depressing.
i think there are more than a few arguments that could be made to this logic. 1. As for hell god forgives those who seek forgiveness, those who have no remorse for their sins go to hell. It has to do with man being in the image and stuff, the further we stray from god the further away from being human, and so the further into hell you end up. why would the supposed creator of EVERYTHING, everything that we see and that we are, allow us to sin in the first place? how can a human be told something is a SIN when we are acting upon the natural instincts and free will given to us by god himself? if you look at the world today there are sinners EVERYWHERE, and since supposedly we are made in god's image, who's to say who the 'real' sinners are? there are probably more 'sinners' in this world than 'non-sinners' when you consider biblical contexts. It has to do with man being in the image and stuff, the further we stray from god the further away from being human, and so the further into hell you end up this is just faulty logic trying to explain the unexplainable. no proof or solid evidence can be made to back up ANY of these claims that you are making. yuo say that christianity is a well-defined and intelligent system, yet you are using logic with absolutely NO basis, just BELIEFS. everything you said are 100% beliefs, you just disguised them to sound like they are facts. 2. secondly, it doesn't explain WHY this life exists. just to test us to see if we goto heaven or hell??? why not put all his creations in heaven, where in heaven-like circumstances there probably wouldnt be a desire to sin anyways. 3. but since god is perfect everything else can't be or else it would have to be god and not everything else. how can GOD be 'perfect' if evil exists? is everything not a result of his own actions? how can he be perfect when his own creations are plagued by so-called sinners? besides that, the point that you just made has no actual factual basis. since god is perfect everything else can't be because that would supposedly make it god?? sorry but this is rediculous logic and a huge grasp to explain the unexplainable besides, everything doesnt have to be 'perfect', but it doesn't have to be as FUCKED up as the world is and has been. 4. 'god' and biblical texts do not explain scientific facts nor do they explain what type of involvement 'god' had with prehistoric humans more than a million years ago? --- perhaps more than a coincidecne that these findings were not known during the era of these religions i could go on forever and ever
I don't think using the man in gods image was the best choice, I was just using something people were familiar with. I can't actually remember if any of the people I've studied use it to any affect. Anyways yeah my logic a bit off mostly, because I wasn't really trying to explain the entire philosophical system, in which "God" is placed. I was just trying to provide a little bit of information about how the arguments behind the Christian notion of God work. First off if you don't know any neoplatonism then it may be difficult to understand, both what I was hinting at when I mentioned how one strays for god, so to speak, and how the god being perfect thing works. I would be willing to share some of my knowledge about that, but that'll be a big task for another time. Second, your questions are valid especially with the little I provided, and I understand what your asking. Most of them are addressed thoroughly by early Christian writer's. Christianity began as a philosophical religion that took neoplatonism and used it's concepts to better describe and understand the jewish god YHWH. I know this may seem like even more reasons to stir speculation about the possible existence of any kind of god. Trust me I have more then enough speculation myself, the only reason I do think the ideas are valuable is because as I said before the system is well founded and believe it or not rational. If you want me to try and addresse some of the questions you asked I will, but you'll have to bear with me also if you really want to know and find answers to those questions your best bet is to go university in a program similar to mine. I would like to address this though. I wasn't actually referencing any kind of biblical texts whatsoever. The writer's i was talking about were basically, in order Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Augustine, Boethius,Thomas Aquinas, and Dante. Also, you might want to check the history of Christianity a bit its only being around about 2000 years. Also, these are men trying to explain concepts that are beyond understanding through words, please don't quickly dismiss this statement, because it will make sense if you develop an understanding of neoplatonism. As for scientific facts you must realize that these facts still rely on ones faith in numbers and science itself. Though it is a very precise and detailed means of explaining a things function, remember that math is the study of patterns through numbers, science, etc. It relies on patterns to study and though there are patterns that can be described this, the fact that they are true does not have any relevance as to whether or not any god exists.