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Graduation Ceremony in local church

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Scubaman, Jan 23, 2010.

  1. Hello there GC, this is my first time in the political section of the forums, and I have a question I feel you guys could help me out with. This will be a wall of text, so bear with me please.

    This year I'm a senior at my local high school in Florida, and graduation is coming up. It was recently announced that we will be graduating within a local megachurch. I visited this building today to see what the venue would be like, indeed it is massive, but I have an issue with it.

    Before I begin my rant, I want to say I have been a Christain since birth and have attended an Episcopalian church for eighteen years now. I am by no means atheistic, yet even I feel uncomfortable graduating in this sort of environment.

    For the past ten years, my school has held the ceremony at the local university Sun Dome, which is just as big as the church planned for this years, and is a much more comfortable environment. For this reason, I plan to draft a petition to my school, and attempt to get this venue changed.

    I'm in a program called International Baccalaureate in my school, and as such we have people from all cultures and denominations in my group. Christains, Jews, Hindi's, Buddhists, Atheists, Wiccans, Deists, Islam, I think we have all the bases covered in this scenario. The majority of my class is very uncomfortable with this idea, as the Christian church is a symbol of Christainity and a belief that is not held by an entire high school. Simply put, it is not fair to hold our final memories of high school in a religious building, receiving our diplomas under a twenty foot cross and in front of a Christian altar.

    Let me state that if our graduation were being held in a synagogue, temple, or other religious building, I would be raising the same sort of argument. To add insult to injury, my class asked the principal whether or not religious symbols would be covered or removed. He told us yes, however in a podcast by the preacher of the church he clearly stated symbols will not be covered or taken down.

    What are your opinions on this? I've already looked up the infamous Wisconsin case, and seen how it's played out. I suppose I could tolerate a graduation in the church, but it would be very uncomfortable. The building itself is extremely imposing and obviously Christian, and several of my classmates have said they will just have their diploma mailed rather than go to the ceremony.

    I'm very interested to hear the opinions of my fellow blades. I feel as if this is an important issue, maybe not a violation of the first amendment and the separation of chuch and state, but I feel damn near close. Almost too close.
     
  2. Sounds like you're all full of piss and vinegar but not really sure why. I'm agnostic and would have no issues with having something like a graduation ceremony in a church, assuming that the program does not contain religious elements that would typically not be there...

    Too much PC crap, not enough personal responsibility here in America. just my opinion, humble as always
     
  3. I don't really understand your objection to the venue, other then a podcast from the minister at the Church... and even then... what exactly is the big deal?

    The space isn't being used for a religious purpose by your school.
     
  4. The objection we collectively have is that it simply is not as friendly or accommodating environment as our past venues. Additionally, it just seems wrong that the culmination of our high school careers will end in an environment that is comfortable for some, and uncomfortable for others.

    Not to mention the church will no doubt profit off of our school, when it is already one of the largest in the area. Never mind the advertising of their church that comes inherent in the ceremony. It feels as if the school and graduation is being used to further church interests.
     
  5. there is a whole new behavior that you go through when you enter a church(not the type of behavior at a graduation)... for example, what do i say,what do i do, what can i touch. it is a very intimidating place in general, i went to catholic school from pre-k until 8th grade, and it was still a very intimidating place...

    a church is a place of worship... i don't think anything other then church services should happen in a church, that is why there is usually an accompanying gathering hall.. my school had our graduation at the football field, im sure there is a local park or something especially in tampa.. a church is not an appropriate venue... this is my opinion though
     
  6. I personally wouldn't want to have my graduation there, what if satanists were the new norm, would you feel comfortable in their place of worship? I don't think a church or any type of beliefs should be imposed upon anyone, even if it is indirect such as you graduating and wanting to be in the same comfortable environment as everyone else.
     
  7. 1) Would you rather it be in Chuck E Cheese? It's friendly and accomidating in that it can hold everybody. There is no such thing as the perfect venue

    2) A person's comfort level is not an appropriate litmus test for where to hold a graduating ceremony. Maybe some people aren't comfortable in 100% secular venues? Maybe some people have a fear of large spaces and arena-like buildings and would prefer the ceremony be held in a much smaller space?

    I know this is the generation of "me" but I think this is a pretty lame criteria. The purpose of the ceremony is to give you a diploma, not validate your comfort emotions.

    3) What, precisely, is wrong with the Church who is leasing you the space making money off of doing so? Every location that will lease you a space will seek to at least break even.

    4) It "Feels" as if the school and graduation is being used to further church interests?

    Well at this point we're rapidly discovering how poorly your school district educated you over the last several years. Your feelings are not the arbiter of such things. There may be 'advertising' going on since it takes place in a Church, but if it took place at any other venue it would also be advertising for that venue.

    There will be no proselytization at the event. There will be no prayers. There may be decorations left on the wall, but if you held the event at an NBA arena there would still be some of the NBA team's logos on the wall.

    Wow, I ended up bolding each line for response purposes, lmao. Sorry. But your objections are just really terrible and seem to have no point.

    The school rented the space because it could accomidate the (presumably) massively large crowd. The transaction took place entirely for secular and educational reasons.
     
  8. What, exactly, is being imposed?
     

  9. The building is not a traditional church, but a converted arena. The protestant theology behind the mega-arena churches is very different from the Catholic theology of having an actual Church building with a tabernacle, etc.

    That's why they are using a converted arena.
     
  10. A little harsher but decidedly much more eloquent than I was while saying everything I wanted to :p + rep
     

  11. i agree you can throw the etiquette part of my opinion out about church and arena... but still sometimes you need to look at the other persons perspective, if you were jewish would you want your graduation from a public school to be at a mega-mosque??? even if the ceremony has nothing to do with religion, i dont know what symbols you'll find in a mosque, but say someone who is deeply offended by christianity is there graduate or family member, and there are crosses and jesus crusified on the cross, probably stain glass windows of christian icons, that can keep people from going to the graduation obviously, but it is really just not appropriate....
     
  12. Maybe the mega-church was cheaper to rent?

    Time for a bake sale?
     
  13. #13 Sir Elliot, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2010


    Fortunatly there is no freedom from being offended.

    I could understand this objection of the location were EXPLICITLY religious (like say the St. Louis Basillica):

    [​IMG]

    That is a location drenched in religious symbolism and imagery. There is no effective use for the location OTHER than religious purposes. The religious nature of the location is inseperable from the location itself.

    However, this is basicly the same as holding a high school graduation in Notre Dame's basketball arena:

    [​IMG]

    Will there be some signs around that say "Notre Dame" which translates as "Our Lady" (a reference to the Virgin Mary), well yes. Might there be some crosses scattered around the place. Maybe. Maybe even some plaques. And the location is called the "Joyce" center, named after Fr. Joyce.

    But is this really a religious gathering place? Sure religious services are held there on occasion... but the primary design function of the building isn't prayer. The building itself clearly can, and does, serve a multitude of purposes, and there is no overwhelming overt and/or forcible Christian message associated with the building.

    The arena that is being discussed is pretty much the same thing, a converted convention/sports arena that holds big church services twice a week. Might there be a few solid religious symbols? Yeah maybe, but the vast majority of religious activity in this location is music and imagery projected by high quality projectors.

    The location was clearly also not selected for being a Church, but rather selected for being an arena that probably has a good parking situation.


    LAST EDIT:

    A certain amount of inter-relationship and inter-action between State and Church will always take place, and is perfectly acceptable. Let's consider that every single state Constitution begins with a reference to God, and that some of our major cities are:

    San Antonio
    San Francisco
    San Jose
    St. Paul/Minneapolis
    St. Louis
    St. Augustine
    Los Angeles
    Santa Fe
    St. Petersburg
    The multitude of "Zions" "Bethels" "Carmels" "Shilohs"

    I could go on showing this even occurs with other religions (like Vedick City, Iowa, or Islamberg, NY).
     

  14. Nice, effective use of ad hominem kind sir. Of course my objections to holding a purely school oriented event in a blatantly religious venue is unfounded and completely wrong, because Christainity is the best am I right? Oh, and I am most certainly one of the dumb teens of the current generation. Nevermind the accelerated international program I've participated in. But, I'm getting off track.

    The past venue we have had is much more open, and much more accommodating. While there may be no evident proselytizing during the ceremony, there will be prayer books, religious symbols, and religious undertones, sheerly due to the fact that it is being held in a church building.

    And no, it is not being held in a near by parish house or a specialized area for such gatherings, it is in the main halls of the church.

    I encourage you to take this into consideration: You're Christian (I'm assuming) and you live in a nation where nature worship is common, multiple gods, everything that blatantly contradicts your beliefs. Uncomfortable? Yes. Would you speak out, especially if you had a majority? I believe so.

    Maybe a quote from the bible will help serve my point and allow everyone to more clearly understand where I'm coming from here.

    “The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur” (Revelation 21:8)
     
  15. i'd barely call a michigan fan sitting in notre dame arena being offended... rather then a jew in a mosque like i gave an example of..
     
  16. an environment for a public ceremony which does not take others beliefs into consideration, if i say god damn in the church will i be kicked out? it's just not appropriate, graduation should be in a neutral atmosphere which doesn't impose upon anyone elses beliefs.
     
  17. I thought the school district was supposed to make decisions WITHOUT considering religious beliefs. Now you want them to consider religious beliefs in making their decision?

    If you say 'god damn' you probably won't be kicked out, since this is an arena that is used for Church services twice a week. Consult my picture post above, it's not being held at some Basillica, it's like holding the graduation ceremony at Notre Dame's basketball arena.
     
  18. Well, this confirms how worthless and uncritical your high school education was. You should ask the State of Florida for a refund.

    You might find responding to what I have written, as opposed to what position you hope I hold, more helpful.
     

  19. Hand in your petition..
    Then ensure that the school never consider holding a Graduation there again..;)
    Spare the kids in the years behind you in school having to suffer this..


    You seem like an intelligent guy and im sure if you and your friends butted heads you could come up with something to "happen" during the Graduation..

    Happy Graduation..:)
     
  20. ... Are there signs in there that say "Jesus Christ rules, if you don't believe in him you suck and you're gonna go to hell" or "Jesus pwns Muhammad all day every day"?

    I don't see why you're offended... it's as not though it's an endorsement of one religion over another... you're just using the space. If there were mega-mosques, mega-temples mega-synagogues; mega-whateever set up for large crowds & graduation-type ceremonies, your school would probably be open to those if the price was lower than the mega-church is offering. Are you that bothered by a couple bibles being in the vicinity or like a cross on the wall?
     

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