This is a direct quote from a letter written around 55 A.D. to a group of people in a town called Corinth. But before we proceed with the quote, allow me to explain the town of Corinth, and it's political and economical influence during that time. Corinth was a wealthy city. Because of its location, goods and people from around the world came from all over by boat. It was a center for art, philosophy, and religion. It contained a number of pagan temples including large ones to Apollo and Aphrodite. The city had a reputation for vice, immorality, and debauchery. A man named Paul spent 18 months establishing a church in Corinth during his second missionary journey. This letter, composed three or four years later, was written in response to reports and a letter Paul received concerning problems in the church. The problems in that church were very close to the problems being experienced in this thread, so check out what this guy had to say.....(It's a good read......I promise) To sum up what you just read, and by the way, thank you for reading this far, this man Paul was explaining to this church why these people in this bustling, immoral (and powerful) city couldn't grasp the nature of their Christ (Jesus). He explained two seperate kinds of spirits: 1.) Earthly spirit, which was mostly compromised of the little amount of science they knew of at the time of 55 A.D. and mixed together with an even more simplistic logic that drove them to come up with pagan temples to Apollo and Aphrodite. 2.) God's Spirit, which is compromised of the Spirit of the living God. He says "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us." The earthly spirit can't explain our God for this very reason. No one knows YOUR thought's except YOUR spirit, no one knows anything of God except God's spirit. But God freely and surely gives everyone his Spirit, and replaces it with our old selves, so now we can know understand the thoughts of our God! Thus making the Bible sound less like foolishness and more like a living word. Anyone lacking that Spirit finds these things to be of utter foolishness, and I see why. They are of another Spirit altogether, with another form of logic altogether. Anyways, that quote you read.....if you read my post, was a direct quote from the Bible (1 Corinthians 10-16) The letter originated in 55 AD in Corinth, today that spot is currently the southern tip of Greece, and is a little bit southwest of the Black Sea. There was actually a second letter written by Paul to these guys too. If you want to learn a little about history check it out. Anyways, I'm not here to argue, I'm simply here to shed some light in the dark, and possibly help a few see another point of view. Have fun guys, and see ya soon!
after reading this, i have come to the conclusion that 1) this regular guy is trying to explain how god's love works, but that no man can understand god. how is this regular guy able to explain something that no one will ever understand? 2) it says "the spiritual man makes judgments about all things". i thought christians weren't supposed to judge people. that was god's job, assuming he (or she) was real. so since this is written in a way that makes it incredibly difficult to understand and leaves it all open to personal interpretation, i have come to the conclusion that paul was a lot more drunk than i am.
honestly, you cant argue against any biblical scripture unless you first understand the message the scripture is sending...... take everything out of context as much as you want but it wont further your cause. read the scripture,learn and understand the true meaning of the scripts, then rebuttal whatever you think is erroneous or cloudy
silly gopher..read your opening thread and tell me how ignorant i am again... i need not regurgitate what others have already said about your thoughts and opinions concerning this topic... edit: religions in modern society? why not religions themselves...what does modernity have to do with anything? (rhetorical..the answer is obvious no need to answer) edit 2: sorry for the double post
I read through the first page, and couldn't really read much more, im just going to throw this thought in Think back, it doesn't really matter how far back, and think globaly. Wow, im too high.... focus! Ok Over the last 2000 years, how many times has the theory of our existance been changed? gods of the heavens, gods of the elements, creation theory, big bang. .... etc. My point being that with technology combined with research, the theorys are constantly being changed; at one point in time all of those have been though to be the answer to the quesion of existance. Much like how you all "know" yourselfs. With that said..... What research have you done to proove your theory? whatever works for you.
Nope. www.evilbible.com Understood, argued and won. Only if you can't look logic and reason in the face...
I can imagine a situation where mathematicians suddenly discover that there are major contradictions in mathematics in every branch of math. Is it possible? The possibility is conceivable as part of our imagination, as many things are, but as far as I'm concerned it is not rational. Knowledge will continue to grow, and knowledge, discovery and understanding give us new perspectives on things that we didn't have before. We can't explain sight to a blind man, but they can give a blind man new eyes these days, and then it's a hell of a lot easier. I agree insofar as we are trapped in our perspective as it stands now, but nothing says that we lack the means to aquire new perspectives and insights to things that were never before intelligible, or explicible. We have little limitations on what we know and what we can know, I believe that the universe is entirely intelligible, I know that we currently lack the knowledge and perspective to understand it all, however I see no reason that this won't change given enough time.
Only if God Himself appeared before me and told me because He said so would I accept that argument. If Abraham, Noah, Moses, Job, Jonah, Jesus and the whole gang got to witness at least a little spectical... A burning bush, blinding light, a loud booming voice... Ya know, something that proved to them beyond a shadow of a doubt the existance of God? These people are the only reason the Bible exists... Yet they didn't need an ounce of faith! I know by grace I've been saved now and not of myself... But how come I can't get at least a little visit from at least SOMETHING on high? Like a little angel visit from the one that visited Joseph... Why must we have so much faith? Because a book says so? I believe in words that make sense but not in words that just scream out "trust me"... If it faith was so important I would think people of faith would experience less troubles. Inconsistancy (problems when you are supposed to be blessed) is not explained well by God testing me either. I don't like the idea of me being some experiment for God to fuck with, regardless of whether He is my creator or not. I'm supposed to have free will but I have this being making up the whole situation and outcome? Doesn't sound to "free" to me... Even Job was visited by God when he cracked under pressure... But me? I don't get so much as a phone call. I believe in God, but if He is a being and tries to reveal Himself I can't see anything other than what I normally see when I ask Him to manifest as a being and talk to me. I have been having a few experiences that show the lack of fairness in life, to me it shows that an equal exchange or protection from problems does not exist for those who believe. So now it has to be explained by God testing us? If we have free will, God cannot test us, at least not as a being- set it up and watch it from the outside looking in. God would have to be us to test us and retain free will at the same time. If God is outside of us than we are mearly some elaborate puppets and a science experiment that may or may not be going as planned. If we were puppets I don't see a problem with God coming down and making Himself known... Especially if we upset Him... I don't know about you guys but I tend to destroy my toys that piss me off! But maybe we just can't see Him... And with all power, there can't be anything He can't accomplish... So it's His will that we can't see Him. So what the fuck? What does it all mean? If God exists as a being but I can't talk man to man with Him, why would I believe in God being a deity? How could I would be a better question? If God exists as a being than at this point He will not appear in front of me, so I do not believe in Him existing as a being at this point. I would sooner believe that God as a being is all of you guys that I actually CAN talk to in person, ya know? It's not that I don't understand the possibility or how it could be considered. There may have been a point that God appeared! But now it's not happening, so why do we focus so much the ideas about God that were experienced so long ago? I appreciate the moral teachings but that side of God just isn't around Earth anymore. (the one that appears and gives people important tasks) So perhaps God has evolved into something new and believers are worshiping a shadow or a dinosaur version of God that just doesn't exist anymore? I want to believe that people got the idea from somewhere and didn't pull it out of their ass like magic, goes back to the whole "something cannot come from nothing" thing. I believe that God CAN be a being, but right now that's not the theme. This could be compared to us being our own boss in my eyes because God never comes in to evaluate our lives as a being that we are aware of. If God is in control than we are not free, if we are God and God is in control than we are free. That's how free will is possible to me yet God can also be in control- we would be Him if both are true. This post is getting pretty fucking long LOL but I just had a recent event that really shed some light onto "you reap what you sow"... It's true but they cut out the part about others being you and they can swoop in and harvest what you alone have sown. It's true but we are so split up that "a man" just happens to be every single person on the face of the earth... So if we don't work together that whole idea is a free-for-all instead of an organized system. But oh well, I think that's the whole point somehow...
first off, if you believe in God then keep this thought in mind: What on earth does He owe YOU? nothing...if you believe you believe if you dont its your loss...if He showed Himself to everyone it would be too easy because then we would all believe. thats a good thing though right?......no, we would all become robots with generic love for Him... want to know why he doesnt just "show up" ?.......because then and only then can He weed out the ones who truly love Him, the ones who believe without seeing.if you have to see before you believe then it would be superficial love. free will...not as tough as people make it out to be. first off not every bad thing that happens to you in this life is a test from God...its free will in the making example: grandma dies, then six months later you lose your job and your house.. is this God testing you, or is this an occurance of events that were just simply bound to happen? just because something bad happens to you in life doesnt mean God is testing you or that the devil is tempting you...its the free will of the earth the robber had free will to kill grandma...your boss had to cut his losses, and you didnt pay your rent for three months so your house was siezed. on the other hand you could say that your whole life on earth is one big test and how you handle it decides your final result :everlasting life or eternal death. i would say both are true...life is a test but not everything is caused directly by God...(if He doesnt do these things Himself then it means He simply allowed them to happen)<~~(in essence some would say this means He ultimately does cause everything..dont let this hang you up though, its too simple to hinder your growth) honestly people (not all of you) dont ask questions if you dont want answers. it doesnt help you any. dont ask for proof...if you want proof that means you desire salvation..and if you desire salvation then all you have to do is seek diligently and you will find it.. if you dont care then dont ask...theres no logic in asking a question that you desire no answer to.just live your life and dont worry about it...afterall, you never cared about this "stuff" in the first place right? and to the ones who say they believe...dont question God's methods. He owes you no explanations and He doesnt need your seal of approval on any of His decisions. educate yourselves: read the bible, meditate in what you study..go to church,it is the body of christ-of what use is the ear without the rest of its body? or a leg or a hand?..and last, be fervent in prayer..when youve kept this "checklist" youll notice that a lot of your questions had easy answers...if you dont do any of these things then you need to ask yourself if you can truly call yourself a christian. the devils favorite weapon is the thought in which a human thinks hes "doing enough" or thinks "hey i go to church and donate money im doing fine" if you dont have a humble heart you CANNOT inherit the kingdom of heaven
couple problems... first, you make god out to be like the guy who's an asshole to everyone and demands respect while giving none. a little reassurance from a divine being would be nice. second, if you believe in stuff without ever having to ever see it, then please tell me what your daily life is like.
@weedseed I only read the first bit and that's all I have time to address if you believe in god by all means kiss his invisble ass but I fail to see how believers always claim god doesn't owe EVERYONE a fucking simple ass water to wine trick just to back his freakin' followers you'd think such an all mighty being would have a few seconds to spare in a timeless existance to hook his faithful up with a good ol' BOOYA BITCHES we were right instead he MUST be graceful like his arrogant troop 'n preach till the ears of the logical fall the fuck off lol
@weedseed I read your entire post, and it's not even worth quoting for my simple rebuttal: Your post is not valid, because all of it is nothing more than an obviously religiously-guided opinion and brainwashed foolishness, and it has no place here.
BUG : what respect does your creator owe you...and why? He loves us all as it is and it isnt in His will that any should perish (eternally) but that is ultimately up to us. He respects us enough to give us a second chance ..how much more do you think you deserve? you cant put yourself on a pedestal like that.its prideful and not very humbling. MORIENDI : faith has everything to do with it..you are saved by grace through faith..water into wine tricks would require no faith once witnessed..if the price of life eternal (being faith and works showing faith) is too high something is wrong with the human saying so..in fact, its the cheapest price you can get XPIPERX : none of that was MY opinion..it is doctrinal truth..which is plenty valid in this discourse..your comment would be the one invalid having no comment on the topic itself..sorry Killah : one good reason? everlasting life would be my first good reason.absense in hell would be another. neverending happiness is another. not being alone for eternity. how many do you need? giving thanks to THE God that gave you this life as often as you want. reuniting with family (assuming they were believers also). what would you consider to be a good reason to believe Killah? or are you a self righteous pessimist that needs nobody but himself? just wondering..
So you're telling me that we must have faith in a God that we can't sense, but must automatically submit to "Him" because "He" tells us too. Otherwise we'll be doomed to Hell for Eternity. And that doesn't make us robots that have generic love for "Him" like you said? Then you go on and state you have for reasons to love "Him." I'm not saying I know what love is but having such reasons to me sounds just as superficial as what you call it when/if you could see this God. This is the whole "Fear is the heart of Love" concept. Quite ridiculous. I'm sorry, but even after all this time you are still just as contradictory as the nature of your own God. This is the reason why people will believe in what they want. It's all too convenient.
lmfao I guess you can't catch logic driven sarcasm bro I'll make it crystal clear for ya faith in some higher power is like fronting your cash for a sack without seeing the sack lol if penn 'n teller can wow people why the fuck can't your god? if he loves you as a believer he should damn well thank you with the minimal response to all that doubt your faith instead he does nothing and you and yours continue to shove silly irrational bullshit down the throats of people who don't wanna hear it (many of which pretend they ain't preaching while condeming a non-believers lifestyle right to their face) edit - hell I can't even grab a beer before xyz on sundays cuz some jerk off chirstian managed to push their god damn weight around on the political front (something which our founding fathers would have went ape shit over)
what ever happened to my first chance? how'd i already pass that one up? i'd like to think i've done fairly decent so far in life. and if i did miss my first chance (first chance at life i assume), then how would giving me a 2nd try be respectful? maybe if i asked to be given a 2nd chance, but i have never talked to god and he has never talked to me (not even a giant middle finger in the sky or anything). it's not about putting yourself on a pedestal. it's about not being taken for a fool. if that's the case, i've got some land in florida for sale.
Theres nothing complex about god. Humans lacked the capability to understand the world around them, so they created myths to explain them. God is one such myth. God does not work. In fact, on numerous thunderstorms, I exclaim "IF GOD REALLY DOES EXIST, STRIKE ME DOWN WITH LIGHTNING NOW!" As you can see, I still type. I have never believed in a supernatural being, and I'm living quite comfortably- except for the shitty toilet paper in my dorm. I feel like I have hemherroids.
I feel your sentiments, thouh i still say it is as i say psychological self dillusions, you tell yourself that god did it, you tell yourself that god changed it, you tell yourself that god tested it, but in actuality it was just fresh air, an air of chance of random events and occurances, it works out well because the devil takes the fall when god does'nt suit the situation Believers are not 'exempt' from any everyday situation or event simply because they believe, there is no special treatment. you can see in life, or by personal observation of your own experience and/or past. When some tragedy happens to a christian, the general explanation is always two-fold, "God took her away..." or "the devil took her' There's always a gap for each to take part. If you cant do something by your faith, you beat yourself up, many have tried walking on water, commanding a tree to toss itself in the ocean, and oh so many have died for by believing the bibles promises. the whole generational epic of christianity evolves around trying to find answers to every day events by squeezing god or satan into every occuring event. It goes something like this, "i got a new Job" = god gave it to me, my car got stolen = "its the devil's fault.", christians often feel like their in a battle. a spiritual battle of some kind agains invisible principalities and worldy orders, whereas they fail to see that the same events, problems, situations, and circumstances happen one in the same to every person living on this planet... My problem with predestination concerning our lives is that upon ovservation of scripture, God seemingly was ignorant of the behaviour of humans, he said our lives are lready preset, that he had set the end from the beginning, but he seemed ignorant that Adam and Eve would sin, or that we would rebel in the tower of Babel, or that he himself would "regret" his actions at Noah's Ark, or we could also look at him as a silent observer who only muses on the doings of mankind. Perhaps God was just learning from us, his children, and learning from this free creation, like if we created an extremely intelligent robot, capable of some level of artificial inteligence " been preprogrammed to exercise free will and free choice, capable of learning, perhaps thats the way it is with God. how to deal with these free beings he has just created, unlike anything else he has seen before, beings free enough to choose against his will, unlike the angels. In his character and actions in the bible he seems to have had been learning step by step about human nature and character, like how exactly do you deal with them? he tried many diferent methods along the way, he tried force, supernatural miracles, national politics, active war. he tried drowning the whole planet, he's used fire, brimstone, earthquakes- but has apparently gone nowhere. Perhaps he was bored of the predictible angels which seemingly have no free will in infinity and eternity (but what of satan?) perhaps this is an entertainment to him? but lets give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps this was a learning experience for him. Perhaps He took a gamble, from being the greatest living being in all existance to making himself a complete idiot in the eyes of these humans, He created beings capable of inteligence, will and choice just like he. even in the flood he seems like he acted out of impulse than grand intelligence.. Bt this is all 'suppose', i still hold my original argument that God is too complex to exist... This... apparently is a big hole... you find a hollywood camera on mars, did it evolve along with the other crators and surrounding rocks? or was it created and placed by intelligence? design is another argument on its own... For proof for the creator, it amounts to the same thing; Because I assert that we have no proof for any existence, and but also we have no proof for non existence. There is no proof to the matter either way. Therefore I like to say there is no proof, that is all. The only time it becomes necessary to prove anything, is at the point we start to use 'proof' to persuade someone our position is the correct one - and neither atheism or theism have this proof. The reason proof is important, is because either side, in order to claim belief is the more rational position, then there must be proof present. If neither side has any proof, then our arguments about which is more rational or true have no basis - note that this does not exclude the possibility of there being a correct answer, it merely makes invalid any argument for either truth or falsity on either side. True, history shows us that many mystical creatures and Gods were very real to the populace at the time. Nature deities were believed to be TRUE divine beings. They were BELIEVED until; with science, mathematics and reason, proven unlikely or more to the point- bullshit, There was no affirming evidence in ancient times when people truly believed in these deities. They believed in them FIRST, the affirming evidence of the unlikelihood of a god came afterwards. Suppose there was no ‘objective consensus’ as to the existence of an invisible creator; The answer would lie in “affirming evidence” (investigation). Without this investigation, the validity of the existence of an invisible creator is unknown; we have NO objective consensus to make this determination true. Belief in a ‘possibility’ of something is only possible after affirming evidence. You are in a shell my brother, a cloyster- and the only way you will be able to see things clear enough or broader than your current religous viewpoint is when you finally, just like liquid, cottons and others, come out of your beliefs, and face the face the inconsistancies head on, you will see that you will hit a head on collision with your beliefs and what you have always trusted in, this will be a new chapter in your life, give you a whole new look. The "world" is not really an evil kingdom of demonic powers and influence, but just a group of normal people living in the same dot and present in time occupying a living, we all, you and i, come from different seperational backgrounds.. we only seek understanding of and from each other in life, we're only living because we found ourselves together in this dot in time and have procreated meaning in "life". there are no sinners, evildoers or demons, just people.. just normal people. "religion destroys a man who becomes too zealous for it" Mark Twain