Simple concept. They don't like freedom of speech, fuck 'em! They don't like equality of sexes, fuck 'em! They don't like making fun of religion, fuck 'em! Pretty simple, fuck all. Especially those that think their belief is more important than civil behaviour. If you think muhammed cartoons are bad, fuck you. It is just freedom of expression used, live with it. Satanic verses not to your liking, then don't read it. Don't issue a fatwa. Fuck you. I could go on. Don't like bacon or ham in schools or (not very surprisingly, correctional facilities), don't fucking eat it. There is jam you know?! Fuck it. We have zero obligation to cater to intolerant islamist demands. As it is, most muslims don't even want to submit to islamist demands, so why the fucking hell should we pretend to do so? We've gone horribly wrong. We (well, not me) think extremist muslims speak for all muslims in our society, where nothing could be further from the truth. We need to encourage the secular muslims. and we can only do that by pushing through the wall of traditional understanding. I can not do that. I am an infidel as good as any. And there is a bit of the problem.
I agree completely, great post by the way. Sometime soon in the UK, there's going to be a big islamic march through London, with the aim of getting sharia law passed here (women being stoned to death for adultuery etc). My friends were talking about how sick it is and how they shouldn't be protesting or even have the right to. But I told them if you wan't freedom of speech, you have to put up with people you don't agree with saying stuff too, no matter how much you dissagree with it. If you want freedom of speech for yourself, you've just got to say "fuck it, I don't care" when someone says somthing you completely disagree with. Edit: Almost forgot.....FUCK 'EM!
Fuck em. Want me to say "People of color?" Fuck you. Don't want me to smoke weed? Fuck you. Want me to belive in god? Fuck you. People need to mind their own fucking buisness. Live and let live.
glad i dont live over there. this islamic culture invasion is serious shit in europe huh? good luck with that
Quite. Us actual liberalists, those of us who want freedoms, need to say fuck you to all that try to inhibit our freedoms. I want to speak my mind, even when that gets on the subject of a pedophile warmongerer self-serving prophet. Or some dude hanging on a cross telling Peter he can see his house from there. Do not matter. I am a long time anti-theist, Done a lot of work with criticism towards christianity, and will now do (and have done) the excactly same towards islam. What I am afraid of, is that, using the methods of burying christianity will somehow be not allowed when applied to islam. That is it really. I am an infidel, heathen. May we all learn the errors of my ways... When you get down to it, no christian, hindu, bahai, buddhist or whatever want to kill me for my lack of belief. Only the islamist do. By no coincidence, these are not what we call good citizens. They are a threat.
I'm a firm opponent of world-policing, but a part of me deep down wants us to go fuck up any country that enforces religion-based laws. Then I remember the good ole US of A is as corrupted by the church as any. Goddam (lol) manipulative motherfuckers who made up organized religion. (I wish I had the means and motivation to make something that makes me that powerful)
BBC NEWS | UK | Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable' The thing about freedom is it includes things like freedom of speech AND religion which in the UK means Islam is unrepresented in law. The christians are covered by normal UK law, the Jews have the Beth Din courts but nothing for Islam. So the Archbishop wants dialogue on opening an Islamic court to bring it in line with other major religions in the UK. He says Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty". Personally i think the sooner the human race thows religion out the window the better off we will all be but then i look at the US, Israel, Saudi Arabia and all the other countries with conservative religious governments and think 'fail.' Where the OP says We do really have that obligation as free countries because most constitutions give rights to religion (Christian and Jewish) and so not allowing Islam a voice is suppression. It's something i'm not keen on but in fairness we have no choice. I did kind of like Muslim extremists behind anti-war protest driven off by members of their own community | Mail Online lasy year though
Not our societies as a whole, at least not yet. But if we are serious about civil rights, equality of the sexes, freedom of thought and expression, then we can not have two standards. One for us "liberated westerners" and one for "backwards arabs". We can't continue to treat muslims like children with special rights and needs. We need to treat all equal. Much of the problem is actually european style nanny-states. It do not promote integration, as most muslim immigrants (as opposed to say chinese, korean, mexican, russian, polish and so on) live on generous disability or unemployment grants. Unlike in the US, where such options are for the most part non-existant, and one really do have to work for a living. Integration happens where people meet. In schools and the workplace. It do not happen when we allow subsidized ghettos to form. As is readily apparant in the UK, Sweden and France. And more and more, even here in filthy rich Norway.
Fixed... The ghettos that you speak of have being created by the governments of European countries not by the muslims themselves.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4375910.stm The only people in Europe that worry about Muslims are the far right or extremists with a hatred of all things Islamic.. Extreme groups like the BNP are attracting support with the usual "They took our jobs".. "They are raping our women" ... There are reports of problems in Scandinavian countries concerning large %'s of rapes being carried out by muslims but this is not reflected across Europe as a whole.. The British National Party — Blog http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France) Interestingly the FN in France are led by Jean-Marie Le Pen who also has a bit of a problem with Jews.. This site would give you a good idea of the % of muslims in European countries... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4385768.stm In Ireland there is very little tension between Muslims and the Irish apart from a few far right groups and paranoid individuals.. We let them do there thing as long as they follow the laws of the State.. The key is respect.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Ireland IMO the problems that have arose in some European countries are down to the governments of these countries and not down to the muslims who have immigrated there in search of a better life for them and their families.. The more bile and hatred that is spewed towards the Islamic community the more isolated they will become and in turn the bigger the problem becomes.. Muslims are on the streets and making themselves heard in Europe because they are outraged at what is happening in the Middle East.. If the US started bombing Ireland tomorrow the Irish American population would be on the streets of the US protesting and rioting as well.. They would feel alienated and cut off from the rest of the US just like muslim communities in some European countries feel now..
Yes, the old "worrying about barbarism" is tantamount to racism. Ofcourse we must all be far right neo-nazi extremists for wanting to uphold equality and civil society. When islamists try to kill cartoonists and authors and film-makers, it is really our fault for angering them in the first place. Nevermind that we have just as much fun with any other religion. When islamists have carbeques in the suburbs of the major cities in Sweden, Denmark or France (really racist countries where fascism reigns), it is our fault because we do not give these jobless thugs enough social security money and vacations. When entire city blocks are lawless no-go zones, where western clothed women are harassed at best, raped and killed at worst, it is our fault for not forcing women to be wearing tents. I won't even mention the numerous attacks on jews and gays. Oops I just did. Get off your high horse Smokinp. There is nothing far right or extremeist about worrying about islamic barbarism in our societies. There is nothing far right or extremeist about combating encroaching sharia. Or perhaps you are one of those that think half the Swiss are racist? Or most germans, not to mention the danish. Or the dutch? All countries where polls show a growing (and majority) concern over these matters. The real extremeist here, is you Smokinp. For willingly making excuses for these barbaric bastards. Thinking that curbing our rights of free thought and expression is the way to go to avoid violence. Being honest, identifying one immigrant group as troublesome, is not being racist or far right or whatever label I am sure you think suits. Chinese and mexicans do not demand women to wear tents. They do not demand special prayer rooms and breaks. They do not demand reserved times at public pools, or women wearing fucking wetsuits when swimming there. They do not demand seperate classes for boys and girls. They do not kill their daughters for being "too western". They don't perform genital mutilation on their daughters either. They do not exploit our welfare systems. They do not stand out in the unemployment statistics. Neither do they stand out in crime statistics, or represent a majority in our penal system. They do not issue death threats or attempt assasinations on anyone excersizing free speech. I could go on.
Where did i say or imply that you were racist ? I merely linked some extreme political groups that share your views regarding muslims.. The point of my post was to give other blades the majority of whom live in the US and have never been to Europe a different perspective.. The vast majority of Europeans are not concerned about nor do we live in fear of Muslims.. It is clear from your previous posts that anything you say about Islam has to be viewed as coming from someone who has a rabid hatred of all things Islamic and needs to be read as such.. I will now jump back on to my high horse and ride away...
That's always much of the problem, and IMO the problem. Without the over-bearing federal government here in the US the religious right would have no power over those beyond their church groups, and the illegal immigrants would have no easily accessible benefits to exploit. It sounds like muslim immigrants share the worst traits of both the US religious right and illegal mexicans. Take away their benefits and adopt stronger legal systems not so easily affected by the whims of man.
It's a particular religion, Islam, that causes extensive harm. Christianity is responsible for things like the University, the Scientific Method, the entire notion of Human Rights, etc.
Yeah, Christianity is the polaroid of perfection... so long as you disregard witch hunts, the crusades, Christian terrorism/extremism, religious intolerance, homosexual discrimination, fearmongering, and so on and so forth. Wiki has an entire page devoted to criticisms of Christianity, as well as Christian terrorism--neither of which are all-encompassing. Locke offered two justifications for his ideas of natural rights (which by the way basically originates from Stoicism which predates Christianity)... one was for the believer, and the other was for the non-believer, using reason in place of the Christian God. To say that the entire notion of natural rights comes from Christianity is grossly ignorant. Christianity is also not very compatible with science, so I'm not sure what you're talking about with the whole scientific method bit. And finally, universities of learning predate Christianity as well. And to imply that Christianity is absent of the same failings as Islam is astoundingly naive. Humans are imperfect, and humans practice, advocate and sustain religion... thus religion, in human practice, is imperfect by extension.