So yeah... I came across a verse a while back that kind of started to get my noodle baking... It's the one where Jesus is talking to His disciples about the end times (Matthew 24), and they ask Him when it will occur... He then goes on to say that no man, not even the Son (himself) knows when the end will come, but ONLY (I stress this as it's important) the Father knows the exact hour... I've asked a couple pastors, friends, college professors, etc. how it's possible that God the Father can know something that God the Son doesn't... The closest thing I got to an acceptable answer was far from acceptable... It had something to do with the Feast of Trumpets where the grooms father would send the groom to go and collect his bride on one of 2 days, and that only the father knew which day he would choose... I accepted this (for a little while) as a good answer, and didn't think much of it for a while... But not too long later, the question came to mind again... You see, in Christian doctrine, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are all just 1 God. They are the same being/entity/whatever. Jesus said this numerous times throughout Scripture "My Father and I are one"... "If you've seen me you've seen the Father also"... And other such verses... So doctrinally speaking, God the Father became God the Son to shed his blood for the sins of all humanity and all that fun shit... Basically the point I'm getting at is that God the Father = Jesus = The Holy Spirit (A = B = C)... If that's the case (as is portrayed in Scripture, and is taught by every branch of Christianity with the exceptions being Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses), then it would be impossible for one part of this being to know any more or any less than another part of this being. Why, then, does Jesus place such an emphasis on the fact that ONLY the Father knows the exact hour of the end? This would be impossible if Jesus and God the Father were one in the same. No if's and's or but's about it... In all my studies, this is the only legitimate doctrinal contradiction found in Scripture. All those other "contradictions" you see on sites like Evil Bible and the like are bogus and taken out of context (they're usually not doctrinal, either, so even if legit. they wouldn't matter much)... This one, however, is legitimate. There is no Scripture in the Bible which can justify this contradiction. Not one. This is why I now consider myself an agnostic instead of a Christian. I very well believe in a God, but as far as organized religion is concerned, I no longer believe... EDIT (3/23/09): I am no longer an agnostic, but flat out atheist. Bwahahaha... It seems as though Zylark were right (see later on in the thread, lol)
That's awesome, Cottons! I'm not sure that's the only contradiction, but that's a very good point. I don't think the trinity makes much sense, either.
It kinda is... Every other "contradiction" I've ever been presented with was just something that was taken out of context (for example, "eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek")... There are a couple times in the OT where numbers don't match exactly -- though this is widely believed to be due to translation differences, and the scriptures in question aren't considered "doctrinal" (or having to do with Christian Doctrine)... I know it sounds kind of arrogant to say "this is the only legit. doctrinal contradiction" -- but this is coming from someone who's studied the religion and it's supposed contradictions for YEARS (I even went to an Independent, Fundamental, Baptist Bible college, where "Defense of the Faith" was a course option, lol). If you have something besides this that really is a legit. doctrinal contradiction, I'd love to see it...
How does this knowledge make you not Christian? You don't have to follow the church to be a Christian in my eyes. I feel the same way and I call myself a Christian still. Should I not anymore so I don't confuse people? They hear Christian and instantly think religious, but I don't believe in religion at all, at least not organized religion...
It makes me not a Christian because Christ himself admitted to NOT know something that God the Father is supposed to know. This makes Jesus not equal with God, and thus, not the Savior of Humanity. Also, how can Jesus NOT know something when He's supposed to be Omniscient? It's contradictory. If Jesus = God, then Jesus = Omniscient because God = Omniscient. If there is even 1 thing that Jesus doesn't know, He's NOT omniscient, and thus, NOT God in the flesh. EDIT: You're absolutely right about not having to follow a certain religious dogma to be a Christian. Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the Savior of a fallen race. God became a man (Jesus), and sacrificed Himself to atone for our sins... So if Jesus wasn't truly God, then He cannot possibly have been the Savior. If you do not believe Jesus = The Savior, then (by Biblical definition), you are not a Christian.
Ah, you see Jesus himself as the savior of humanity. I see the ways of Jesus as the savior of humanity, he doesn't even have to be real to me. Am I still a Christian? Or a different beast altogether?
Congrats Cottons on understanding the nature of the Bible and organized religion. I to struggled with the idea of certain verses, one of my biggest ones was how Jesus said he was God in John, yet a similar declaration was missing from other books in the Bible. When I have time, I will share some contradictions I have not been able to explain. Welcome to the agnostic side. <hr>Mr. GoodStuff, you confuse the living hell out of me. "I am a Christian." "I am not a Christian." "I am a Christian/Buddhist." "Do not argue as if I am a Christian." I am really, really confused here.
Unacceptable, man. Don't be agnostic 'cause your trusted texts reveal a fault. Be agnostic 'cause God exists only in the minds of those who believe in God and those who disbelieve in God, in whatever form God takes to them based on their perspective. Imaginary!
@LT... There's verses in the other Gospels where Jesus strongly implies that He's God (I don't remember if it's outright said or not)... He says "I Am" when asked who he is (that's the same answer God gave Moses ("I am") when Moses asked who he was speaking to in the bush)... As far as I'm concerned, that's equal to calling himself God... The fact that Jesus outright called himself God in John, and then said He doesn't know when the end is coming (In Matthew), just shows that Jesus can't possibly have really been God... @ stoned_soldier... It's more so me dropping my belief in the Bible due to a major doctrinal contradiction. Basically showing that Jesus can't possibly be who he's claimed to be in Scripture. I hold to the belief, however, that God exists -- though not in the form portrayed in the Bible or by other organized religion.... If that makes any sense Thanks for the input, though, guys... I'll anxiously be awaiting more responses
I tend to do that to 'only rational' thinkers. I'm outside of the box man, you guys keep me grounded as much as possible though. Here I am asking a previously religious Christian if my beliefs are inline with what a Christian would call a Christian. Not getting very far though. I believe in Christian principles, and I believe in Buddhist principles. I believe they are the two sides to the same coin of understanding morality and reality. You know these things and I've tried to express my frustration at not being able to really classify my beliefs like others. Yet you point it out like I don't realize it. I'm really trying to find out who I am through all of this, that is all. Edit- just saw your edit cottons. I guess I am not a Christian by Biblical standards then. Jesus isn't the savior to me, we are. Jesus was just an example to me. I think I'm getting somewhere though- now I can say "I'm not what the church would call a Christian but I believe in the ways of Jesus."
i just have a hard time believing that a genuine christian, who has a relationship with Jesus, would instantly convert to being an agnostic due to something so completely irrelevant to the big picture. its beyond me.
hey i may be horribly incorrect. i was loosly raised christian but i have developed my own philosophys in my past few teenage years. But wasn't it stated that we are one with Jesus, jesus is one with god. meaning we are all connected through the arms of god, nd in the grand scheme of things the answer to the end times, is right there inside, its just a matter of. idk praying alot. or delving deeper into ur christ conciousness. lol. im trying to articulate my ideas with christianity nd i have no idea if they make sense and really apply. forgive me for my possible arrogance
It is not an instant conversion, it took me many years to do it, and I am sure Cottons struggled with it for a good deal of time as well. The Bible being inaccurate is not irrelevant to the big picture, I might add.
Of course it is. Your mind is so high on the thought of god that it impedes your ability to think logically.
Of course people people instantly "think religious" if you use the term "christian".....christianity is a religion so why would anyone think otherwise? You calling yourself a Christian and then, in the very next statement saying you dont believe in religion, is a complete contradiction. Its no wonder people get so confused when you speak about your beliefs. To the OP, i've never been a big fan of the idea of being agnostic....however, its a step in the right direction. I spent very little time as an agnostic before I decided that I was an atheist at heart and heres why: There either is a God, or there isnt.....there is no in between. Sure we can argue about what "god" really is, but im talking about the supernatural being known as god. So it didnt make much sense to have my beliefs lie somewhere in between where there is no in between if you think about it. Does that make any sense? As an agnostic, I spent a lot of time thinking and thinking and thinking before it finally hit me. In my opinion, becoming an agnostic is a stepping stone to atheism.
I think that as you read more, you will discover more contradictions - I read the bible cover to cover in high school, and found many, many places where two different books purport different (opposing) facts to be true. Matthew and Luke tell different stories of Jesus' birth, and the massive census according to (only) Luke is unsupported in any other documents, anywhere. In fact, many of the gospels, when laid side by side by side, have pieces that contradict the others. I have always wanted to learn greek to reread the bible - there are theories based on vocabulary and historical context that say Paul was not the author of some of his communications (notably Timothy (1 Timothy 2:11-15) especially concerning womens roles, compared to Galatians 3:28.) To be clear, I am advocating the position that it is obvious at the very least that the bible is not a special document that was divinely perfect and protected by God - and that it's a fact (Paul mentions it in Corinthians) that there were forgeries floating around very early in the history of the church. With these facts, I really think it's ludicrous to claim that the bible can contain only the truth as set out by God. That all said, I don't think that is a reason to give up Christianity. At the very least, there are admirable sentiments expressed by Jesus, and lots of people have done good in his name because they supported those sentiments. It is undeniable that people have done evil in his name as well, but that's a choice made in opposition to Jesus' teachings. A moral person (whether religious or completely atheistic) person lives the good message, and you'll find that many, many religions and moral codes around the world support the same good message. I don't think you need a God or Savior to make good decisions, but I know a lot of people who draw a lot of comfort in being surrounded by people who live every day thinking about the Christian version of that good message. I don't like to lie to myself, but some people think it's easier and safer to not explore the inconsistancies. I can't knock religion, because I know part of the reason I am crazy is because I don't think there is anything else after this. I think this is my (and our) one and only shot - everyone who has ever died will die in vain if we fuck this up. I'm only human, and I worry about my family and friends first, but I worry about us as a species too. We may be cancerous, but our capacity for good is so supremely awesome that I hope against hope that it wins out in the end. For me, there are no guarantees - we could be like any number of other species whose behavior led them into extinction. It seems to me that it would be very comforting to believe that everyone who gave a damn about more than themselves could meet for a party at the end of things.
I don't know, it may just be me, but that sounds almost the same as saying... "Just because it has never been shown to be a valid idea is no reason to give up being an alchemist."
Who said it was an instant conversion? This has been something I've been studying, and dealing with for many years, now. And what do you mean it's something "completely irrelevant to the big picture."? It's very much a part of the big picture. Jesus, the begotten Son of God. God the Father incarnate, in humane form on the earth. This very God, dying for the sins of mankind, and who's blood holds the redemption of the world from sin. This is THE very pillar of Christianity. The belief that the entire religion is founded on... But what happens when the one who died for our sins... Jesus, God incarnate, is NOT really God incarnate? One part of the Godhead cannot know any more or any less than another part of the Godhead, or said part is not God. Omniscience = ALL knowing, and according to Scripture (Christianity's book of conduct pretty much) only GOD = Omniscient. So for Jesus to be "God" he would then have to be Omniscient, especially seeing as how he claims to be the "I am" of the OT, and outright claims to be God in John... Yeah... +Rep if I can I wouldn't necessarily say that... Have you ever been a believer? Well then I guess I'm not exactly true to the term agnostic, but I feel it's the one that best suites me. I believe in the supernatural. Whether it's a God/Spirit/Whatever, I believe (mostly through personal experience) that there is something beyond our world. I just no longer believe Christianity is the way to it... Or any organized religion for that matter. I do believe in a spiritual realm though... 100%... Nothing will ever be able to shake that belief. I've seen/experienced things that can't be logically explained any other way. People may say otherwise, but they weren't there. They didn't see/experience it so to them I say
Well said , it took me much more hard work to quit my beliefs , and you looking at a bonafide hardcore ex-christian right here man, born again and the whole shibang... til I put him to the test - my own personal test experiments on his promises, one on one with God, the Creator, and he flunked it big time man! -100 on 100! I consider myself now as a "confused atheist" just trying to find answers to my unanswered questions, but i figured out something, no one has the answers i want.