Free will is just an illusion

Discussion in 'Science and Nature' started by VikingToker, Jan 15, 2011.

  1. Reading Stephen Hawkins' "The Grand Design". This shit blew my mind, wanted to share:


    "Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets.
    Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws.
    For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion.
    "


    Read more here: Stephen Hawking Free Will is Just an Illusion


    Great book!
     
  2. Learned about this stuff in a philosophy class last semester. It was really kind of disheartening because it's hard for me to disprove this philosophy to myself.
     
  3. even if this is the case, do you not still have control over it? you are free to think what you want to think, molecules aren't able to think for you.
     
  4. #4 Guadalope, Jan 16, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2011
    Well then... What created Science my friends... Ask your self that one. All Science is theory, all everything is Theories, created by Human. There truly are no facts... Even that we breath and see are technically theory... There are mainstream theories that majority believe, thus we tend to believe it is fact, and do not question it. The fact of the matter is... We will NEVER truly KNOW anything...

    To me there is SO MUCH TO LIFE that humans can't comprehend and never will comprehend because we are just too low of intelligence.. We are not the Universe/Creator.. Thus we will never know.

    Even if an intelligent life-form came down, and told us LIFE! They do not know... You can never KNOW, You lie to yourself and tell your self you know, but you don't know. My personal opinion is when you listen, you know, and if you know what I'm talking about, you know whats good. If that makes any sense...

    He's talking about the "Physical Brain" Not your MIND, which scientists will never be able to understand... It's not material, it technically does not exist... Yet it does... You can't touch it, thoughts materialize, in your mind... and we don't know how, we just know everyone has thoughts... And even that itself you don't know.. You can't enter someone's mind.

    To me scientific minded people are closed minded because they want FACTS! There is no such thing as facts... Just common beliefs.. They ignore the so called "spiritual/unknown" yet they think... Where do your thoughts come from? Your Mind, where does your mind come from? Well we think the brain, because you view things out of your head (eyes)...
    But if you ever mediate and shit... You can feel your mind disconnect from your so called body... and connect to an infinite uncomprehend'able awe-striking mind fuck of a sensation that is inexplicable in human tongue...

    Personally at night, when I lay down, I notice when my mind switches from reality, to dream state, and can stay in that dream state, have DEEP thoughts, ones that occur in dreams, and apply it to the physical reality... Night is when I write poety/rhymes/thoughts, because I feel my self tap into an unfathomable "force," literally can feel the connect it makes to my mind....

    I literally sometimes hear something telling me knowledge of an unfathomable level... The language it's in is english, but thats because it's my voice saying it... But it's not me that is giving the knowledge... I can ONLY comprehend it whilst asleep... When I wake up it vanishes from my mind, but when I'm asleep I regain it... and continue my "lessons". When I awake from sleep in the morning I FEEL WHAT I LEARNED in my Mind, I just don't KNOW what I LEARNED... My mind feels I guess "stronger"?... I cannot articulate it sadly.... Quite depressing.

    I sound crazy as fuck lol... But what ever... Being crazy is part of understand ALL, you need to fall into a void of nothingness to feel everything...
     
  5. #5 fatkat, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2011

    I'm only half-way through and this is fine fine fine stuff my friend. :smoke:

    Edit:
    I like you.

    Yeah the universe is a void and yet it's very much real. We know so little and that only vaguely.

    The mind can connect with the brain and yet have its communication network be stimulated by electric shock!
     
  6. Thanks man... If you wanna learn more about me, read my posts in this link:
    http://forum.grasscity.com/spiritua...esoteric-agenda-incredible-documentary-2.html
    Pages 2 and 3... They're quite interesting, to me at least... If you like what you read here, I kind of go farther into it.
     
  7. "I am nothing more than a thought and free will is nothing more than how I choose to be remembered."
     
  8. If you think about the illusion of free will is just as good as free will. I have had a hard time coming to grips with this also, even though I have psuedo-believed it for a long time.

    We can point out the places in which thought takes place in the brain. We can point out your memories. We can tell you why you feel, when you feel, and how you feel. We can read brainwaves to see which part of your brain is working.

    Although our understanding of the human brain is rudimentary, there is a set of physical laws which control it. We just need to figure them out. Don't get me wrong, spirituality exists, but it exists as a product of our brain.
     
  9. #9 of montreal, Jan 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2011
    i think you're missing the point. people don't exist. we're just ideas, we made ourselves up.
    what i mean to say is that there's no distinction between 'you' and 'molecules'. our consciousnesses are controlled chemical reactions and electrical impulses. that's not what we're made of, that's what we are.

    edit: hopefully no one gets the wrong idea from this, i don't claim to be so sure of myself here. although i'm pretty certain in my own mind that what i'm saying is true, they're just words. they don't really mean anything objectively. as someone a few posts above me said, we really don't know anything. i certainly don't.
     
  10. I don't think that is the right way to put it. We are real. We do exist. We aren't just ideas... We change the physical world around us. There is a spirituality involved with these electrochemical processes. We influence our children. Their children. If we are 'successful' enough in life we influence people many generations to come. We mold the Earth to fit our needs.

    Ants don't do that shit. Ants are born, work, generate offspring, and die. Ant hills aren't permanent structures. Mommy ant and daddy ant don't really influence baby ant. They certainly can't influence the ants born 20 generations later (with exception to genetic influence).
     

  11. While I don't like you limiting what we can and can't discover about life (I believe humans can figure it all out at some point), this is good stuff mate, you're right, we dont know anything. We can't be sure of any 'facts'. But, nonetheless, we are forced to assume that these ... beliefs, these theories are true. For example, you are forced to assume that the laws of gravity are real, because they define everything around us. You cannot choose "not to believe" in gravity.

    As such, being forced to assume that something is true makes it a fact, in my opinion.

    Which brings me back to free will: the brain is an overcomplicated machine that is so mysterious that it is very possible that it is somehow divine, as you say. I've had my share of awesome mind trips that make me want to believe that too.

    However, modern science has revealed more and more about the brain, and this ability to directly influence physical behaviour, as the brain surgeons discovered, shows us that free will is only an illusion we have because we are the only people in control of our own brain. The truth is that the brain is just a control panel, and as the doctors showed, anyone can go in and operate that control panel.

    The REAL question lies in dividing the physical and spiritual realm. If someone can enter our brains control panel and tell us to move a leg, an arm, a finger - can they then also tell us what and how to think?

    Fascinating topic imo :)


    Edit: Spelling
     

  12. Scientists Disrupt Moral Reasoning With Magnets To The Skull

     
  13. Although you are susceptible to the delicate balance of your brain chemistry, you are (for the most part) in control of it. I believe that what Mr. Hawking is saying is that your mind and will CAN potentially be controlled by another individual altering your brain's electrochemical state, BUT it's kind of a worst-case scenario, 1984 situation. Nobody's controlling our free will, they just COULD.

    I wanted to type out this message, so I consciously opened the sodium channels in my motor neurons leading to my fingers. I willed each neuron to release enough acetylcholine to continue the action potential in the next cell. I sent this action potential to my flexor digitorum muscles to type out this message, and then posted it for all of you to read. I willed it to happen, and so it did.
     
  14. #15 fatkat, Jan 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 21, 2011

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7IKPRFKqwg]YouTube - Mentat DeVries[/ame]

    I believe in will. When will is free - when guilt is purged and the world lays open, freedom is beautiful and real.

    We are machine and spirit.

    I am on my last stone for a while and I feel free to choose to welcome a sober mind.

    Not in small part because the plant does not try to possess our psyche. It is a gift.

    Look at this caterpillar, it's cute.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Hmm I would have to say perhaps you could calculate occurrences with enough information, but because our thoughts themselves are not chemicals.

    So that introduces randomness. Entropy. Which can be calculated, but the initial quantity is random. Like the movement of quarks, completely random. (Source: Quarks 'swing' to the tones of random numbers)
     
  16. the thoughts youre thinking right now where did they come from? You didnt create them, they were created for you, they just arise, and you thought you thought them up yourself. Its a good illusion.
     
  17. Hah... good shit
     

  18. Are our thoughts not electrical pulses interpreted by the brain, though? Not chemical, but energy?

    Holy shit. Thought = energy. Holy shit.

    And if thoughts are electrical signals interpreted by the brain, how does the brain interpret those signals?
     
  19. I would have to disagree and say that they aren't necessarily brain impulses, in fact the true nature of consciousness is unknown.

    Brain impulses and our mind is functioning with electric currents, but your actual consciousness and self isn't limited to chemical imbalances.

    The locus of consciousness is still unknown.
     

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