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Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by mmmmgood422, Apr 27, 2003.

  1. Is there such a things as forever?
  2. clarify. can an object last forever? does time last forever? time (even as another dimension) is simply a figment of out inaginations created to help us cope with the idea of a present, past, and future. You did something but arent doing it now so it's in a different time, almost like a different place if you think of it as a dimension but since it's a figment of our imaginations that place doesnt exist. So time lasts as long as there are people to agree that there is time. However, assuming time exists outside of our minds, then I believe it lasts forever. Where did the universe come from and does it end? If it ends where does it go? Matter can neither be created nor destroyed, the same with energy so the universe should last forever, but how do you factor in the ever increasing entropy? Can entropy alone cause the universe to cease to exist when it builds to a certain point?

    I know I asked a lot of questions there but questions lead to ideas which lead to theories which lead to facts. If enough people think about these things, answers will eventually come.
  3. this is precisely my point. forever as in time, as in space. does the universe go forever? how can it? how could there be a beginning of the universe and there be no end? or was there a beginning? circles continue forever if you follow the path, but you can step to the side and be out of it, so it ends. same with spheres too. so how is there no end to the universe? if there is no end to the universe, this means it continues infinetly in an infinate amount of planes. but is there infinity?

    "I know I asked a lot of questions there but questions lead to ideas which lead to theories which lead to facts. If enough people think about these things, answers will eventually come."

    thought answers nothing. people may believe they have come to a factual conclusion based on science or reasoning or faith. i asked 'does the universe go on forever" and you may have a theory but that does not mean it will lead to an answer. until someone reaches the end of the universe, we dont know. and what comes after the universe? if the universe does go on forever, how will we know? just because we will never find an end, doesnt mean there isnt one.
  4. Answers to some of the questions can come but obviously not the ultimate you posed as the basis for this thread. If it is possible to prove that entropy can destroy something simply because the object cannot contain it then it goes a way to say that eventually entropy could build up to the point that the universe cannot contain it either.

    The realm of thought of whether or not forever exists depends on many things, including your beliefs. If you are Christian, then forever in at least one sense is guaranteed. If you look at it from a purely scientific standpoint, then it becomes much more difficult, but that involves believing that God doesn't exist. You can't prove that God doesn't exist and I can't prove that he does. Reasoning could involve both religious and scientific standpoints but that still involves belief and faith. If we decide that entropy could destroy the univers, could God not stop it? He is omnipotent so if it was His will it would happen. We can't have absolute proof that the world does or doesn't end, at least not while we're alive. If you die and go to Heaven and see God and he says the universe will last forever, then you know, but it doesn't get conveyed to the living so the living can't know, only believe.
  5. ah, see this is where we disagree. your position is faith. i am not christian. faith is believing without proof. i dont consider myself that scientific, but i like proof, or at least beliving the possiblility of proof. if one can have faith in God, one may have faith in the infinity of the universe, in space and time.
  6. time began with space. the zero point of the universe is also the zero point of time. there is no "before" the universe. no negative time.

    if time will continue forever, then so will the universe. if time will end, then so must the universe. we humans like better the idea of a finite universe. but current predictions point towards a cold, dark and infinite future for the universe. in the end, all fissionable matter will be burnt up. the stars and galaxies die. most energy will be bound up in matter, and the universe would get so big, that all matter in it will be spread really, really thin.
  7. But that's assuming time is something that exists with someone to define it. Time is only something we use to cope with the fact that we did something but we aren't doing it now. Otherwise we'd try to think of it like everything is always happening now regardless of if we did it earlier or are going to later. Time doesn't flow. We flow.
  8. Human nature is to put things into terms we can understand; we often seperate things into two extremes for example. Good and bad, dark and light, ect..

    We simplify, pick things apart, and then put them back together conceptually once we understand what they are in their simplest comprehensible form.

    Because of the way we percieve things I believe that we can't comprehend eternity because we don't percieve it 'correctly'...


    But I have another belief that if it can be concieved of it can be done, no matter how abstract and counterintuitive, it could happen through force of will and time.

    The inherent problem with this question ('Is there such a thing as forever?') is that we percieve time as a linear process, a line, it goes in one direction and stops for nothing that we can comprehend. All we can do is learn from the past, react to the present, and guess for the future. For all we know time exists in some incredibly simple and tangible form when percieved by other intelligent beings (don't worry, this is the only part of my theory that's based on aliens :D). But just as a dog has a better sense of smell than us these time sensitive aliens can understand time better (percieve it better) because of some need to be able to understand it in such a way (just as said dogs have evolved a 'higher' form of smell because of a need for it). In fact at some point everything percieve has to be put into terms that we can understand or we wouldn't know of it. Therefore I believe that time is (or can be) tangible and manipulated. Our existence; our experience even, is all based on what we take in, if our minds existed beyond perception and learning what would they be? Is an existence with nothing to understand existence? Is it at all possible that a human mind could become anything despite a lack of any form of input? So why would time be any different from the other things that a closed off (from perception) but autonomous mind couldn't understand?

    I think the answer (to the original question, not my own) is that we must at least ackowlwedge that eternity exists, even if it is only in our imaginations at this point. Once we better understand this universe (who knows what may exist beyond time, space, matter, or energy?) we can put time into terms so that we can percieve it as we would a single object, we would be able to pick it apart and put it together in a way that suits us just as we could a bunch of legos. In fact, that's a good analogy; if time is a fundemental building block of existence that we percieve as a line, maybe the answer is to rebuild the building block, perhaps the answer is to literally pick apart time and put it back together in a way we can understand. Maybe in this sense our perception of time is so flawed that the only way to understand it is to drastically change either what we are or what we're trying to percieve. What would changing time do to the aliens? Maybe that's why we can only percieve it as we do...

    ...maybe the aliens got to it first and made it 'theirs'. Maybe time's an incredibly rare element throughout all of everything (even beyond our universe) so it's carefully controlled and maintained, siphoned off into a line and fed to us so we can exist, and the aliens that control it get to decide who gets what, therefore they can do more with it to better understand it.

    There are far too many possible explainations but those are the best I could come up with :)
  9. "I think the answer (to the original question, not my own) is that we must at least ackowlwedge that eternity exists, even if it is only in our imaginations at this point. Once we better understand this universe (who knows what may exist beyond time, space, matter, or energy?) we can put time into terms so that we can percieve it as we would a single object, we would be able to pick it apart and put it together in a way that suits us just as we could a bunch of legos. In fact, that's a good analogy; if time is a fundemental building block of existence..."

    Well, in all of that you sucessfully dodged the question all together. While i do understand your reasoning, i dont see the answer in it. im asking, how will we reach a better understanding of the universe until we know whether it is infinite in space? how do you know infinity exists? is it faith or science? how can we put the universe into a single object and pick it apart? because forever isnt one object. i think eternity is one thing a mind, no matter how sophisticated, can not comprehend.
  10. If you're questioning it at all it can be deciphered, and I certainly wasn't dodging anything, that was the best answer I could come up with off the top of my head. Not to mention that I was mostly speaking in terms of time, not all of existence. My words seemed to not go in any discernable direction because it's all part of a bigger idea of what I think existence is, or might be. I didn't really think people wanted to read an essay, so I confined it to one subject within a broader concept.

    And as for whether or not anything is completely incomprehensible to us, imagine a scenario for me. Take a very low form of life, say a powerful computer (it can do a lot but still isn't completely autonomous). Now give it the ability to multiply. Then tweak it so it can take in data and dechipher it through a never ending process of trial and error through data and experimentation. Now that it can multiply and learn it can start to grow not just in numbers but in a form of spastic but exponential intelligence. The more of them there are the more there are that can store and share information. Now give it the ability to adapt; to react to environments and circumstance. Now it can grow exponentially in three ways. Then give it the ability to not just adapt but adapt and prepare, to use tools. Now these machines can grow at an amazing rate and improve their abilities. Now, at this stage, give these machines an eternity (or near eternity) of time, space, matter and energy and it will grow quickly....
    ...but if the universe is also expanding exponentially, it boils down to which has a higher exponential rate; the robots (life, force of will), or entropy (the seemingly natural degradation of the universe through seperation and expansion). When put into these terms not only does it suggest that perhaps life is actually the one and only counter balance to entropy, but it also fits into my theory that we can understand anything by putting it into a pattern of concepts, left or right, or maybe life and entropy. But the life has an advantage, not only can we grow in mulitple exponential ways, but we can build new life. Just as we have begun to do, or the fictional self replicating robots, tools become intelligent and life is born. Perhaps at first life as we know it was part of some larger process, maybe we had a distinct purpose at some point. Maybe once whatever might have created us (if anything) had decided that we were simply too intelligent to control, maybe they had a concept of empathy as we do, letting us be what we want, the forces of evolution guiding our way. Maybe we're nearly as intelligent now as they were when that happened. But there are things that could lead to the collapse of life, and things that could bring entropy to an end. Imagine if entropy somehow had an intelligent manifestation, if something just as intelligent and powerful as us was created to destroy. If robots were created just as the other fictional ones, but were designed to take apart and destroy (life and everything else). It could potentially destroy at least as easily as life could create. If the destructo-bots (heh) could grow at an exponential rate it would become true competition. Now imagine that through our ability to socialize and share information a form of conceptual entropy may occur; lies, misrepresentation, manipulation, any form of
    counterproductive behavior.

    Now having the two fundemental things that could potentially effect existence put into some kind of terms we can ask a few new questions. For example; If life has an infinity -or at least enough- of time, matter and energy (and whatever others elements might be necesarry for our existence), won't it grow exponentially in effective (and ever changing) ways until eventually it surpasses the growth rate of the universe and envelopes everything in this existence in the best possible manner ('pattern')? But will life start to collapse once we get to this point? Will there be 'too much life'? To answer this we have to try to put an ever expanding (but not necessarily infinite) universe into some possible terms, if not anything that's actually true (gotta start some place). Imagine that perhaps the space and matter that we live within are part of an exponential pattern that reaches to the miniscule to the macroscopic. One end getting ever smaller and one end getting ever bigger, but because each end is literally everything all of it shrinks and none of it is effected by the continual growth/shrinking process, it's all smaller or bigger and doing it at the same rate, nothing could notice unless they were looking for proof very specifically. Maybe one day we'll find out that we exist within the giant macroscopic alien equivalent of a toilet, but we can't come close to comprehending it yet because no tool comes close to seeing anything on such large terms. Or perhaps all along there's been a race of hyperintelligent incomprehensibly small organisms (or something smaller even) living in your left nostril. Maybe, just maybe, all the creatures figure out that we live within micro and macro-scopic universes and learn to create life on macroscopic levels so the universe they life within has a will to live and the ability to expand and adapt, thereby ensuring your survival. Perhaps that's exactly how we came to be, and that's why we develop to become better and not just maintain ourselves. Maybeafter some point they've manipulated everything on their level as much as possible so they take the complex patterns that make up their universe and bring live to it somehow. Imagine a huge macroscopic but amorphous and autonomous universe. Maybe it's our destiny to do this one day ourselves, to bring entropy to an end we'll create life on a overbearing level that can't be touched by the forces of expansion, becase there truly is no end to life and existence, in any direction.

    That's the best 'answer' I can come up with.
  11. damn krazi hare, thats one long ass post! u r very opinionated, i like that, makes u unique!
  12. in terms of general use of the term...

    "forever" is like "infinity".

    its all a matter of perception.
  13. fine long post there. brings up some thoughts. i have two comments tho'

    the universe is finite. at least in mass / energy. the only expansion of the universe going on, is the further seperation of mass/energy in time/distance. so it is totally possible that someday life will take into use all mass and energy of the universe. that will require som massive exponential growth of life tho'

    speculating about paralell universes, universes in universes, makro and mikro universes is just that, speculation. as pointed out, these can never be observed directly or inderectly.

  14. by that same token it could be suggested that the perception of a finite universe is speculation too... we cannot say that other dimensions do not exist, and that chaos theory does not create billions and trilions and zillions and googles of near identical universes right next to us, just outside our comprehension & perception.

    Even the very best of current scientific thinking cannot account for all the mass in the universe... all the familiar matter and energy that we know accounts for something like only 5% of all thats out there. The whole "dark energy is still to be reasonably explained.

    in terms of "infinity" which i will try to apply to "forever".
    if you imagine a pair of parralel lines, it is said that the two will never meet and would go on for infinity ((asuming space isnt curved, which it is... but lets not get into that here)). This only talks of infinity in only one dimension. now imagine a plane that spans for infinity. still we're only at two. now three? people say that we live in a 3 dimensional universe... and some call the fourth dimension time. lets asume that there are far more spacial dimensions that we are unaware of before time is added to the equation. if infinity can be explained as something that is never ending... cannot be added to to make bigger as it is already infinate, you can attempt to double it but its still infinity... then we see that this fisrt infinate line we drew was far from infinate... it only occupied one dimension.

    time can be expressed in much a similar way taking chaos theory as a general rule of thumb. but here we see that there are far more dimensions than can be expressed spacially. every instance... on the smallest degree (im talking about faster than a femto second.. im talking about faster than things can be done using super string theory) each tiniest moment there is another temporal dimension created. and as time is applied with a relative constance throughout the cosmos, this occurs in every possable tiniest portion in the spacial dimensions.

    so to percieve what it means to have a general definition of "forever" is very much dependant upon how far you want to span into the dimensions.

    so the term forever, and the term infinity, are both interlinked so closely that one cannot really be considered without the other. Much in the same way that most physisits do not percieve space as a seperate concept from time. there is only Space Time.
  15. i think forever and infinity and nothing, all that shit is beyond human comprehension, they do exist but we cannot understand it because it defies what "human science" says

  16. so you are saying we shouldnt try?

    we souldnt try to deconstruct the madness we have surrounded ourselves in? we should stay mad?

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