Finding another

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by esseff, Sep 18, 2011.

  1. People have come and gone throughout my life, and for a long time this would often bother me. I couldn't understand why I'd get so affected by having people who I thought I'd made a connection with, not choose to continue doing so.

    I've come to accept that even though I'd always wanted a partner, or thought I did, at least I liked the idea of regular sex, I just couldn't find someone who could see me for who I really was. I didn't know it takes time to do so. I just thought that having sex with a person I was really attracted to was as nice as it needed to get. But it quickly, sometimes very quickly, became something I didn't want anymore. I realised that the relationship/partner/friends aspect was way more important to me than just the sex thing, yet that was so much harder to get right. I wasn't ready to commit to understanding why.

    I eventually came to feel that being unattached would be best, and certainly when I've felt completely free, I've had some of the most amazing experiences of my life. Yet, I always came to feel something was missing. The idea of sharing my life with another, perhaps one special person, perhaps even being a father, became something I'd keep opening to, and that's what always stopped me from staying that way.

    I had to look at myself and my motives really deeply. I needed to know the real reasons for what I did, and if they were not quite what I thought they were, honestly accept them, and then intend to learn and 'be better'.

    I've met people who I consider brothers (with women, the sexual tension often makes it more difficult to see them just as sisters only). By brothers I mean blokes who are kindred spirits. People who, for a short time, I connect with on a deep emotional level, that feels far more real.

    What these people showed me was both what it feels like to be really open, without fear, and how to move on properly when things were over. The latter was alway harder to do. I treasure those times because they gave me so much.

    I didn't know whether being with Sarah was right for me. I knew what I felt, but I also knew that my feelings change so easily too. And the journey of learning to be around her hasn't been smooth. It also changes the way people see me. I'm less of an 'I' and more of a 'we' in their eyes, while in reality we try to see our highest selves, without losing who we are in the process. It's not easy to do this but it's the only way to make it real.

    I must see her as the goddess. I have to see her as she sees me. The more I do so the clearer she gets, and then I can love her without losing who I am, what I want, need, or feel to do.

    Of course, a relationship is all about compromise, but the mistake I used to make was making being in love a complete surrender, where I lost the sense of who I was, and by the time I realised I'd done this, it always seemed too late to get back.
     
  2. It seems you have an extreme fear of attachment. I think you should ask yourself what scares you so much about it and you'll be closer to your solution. Attachment is not a bad thing at all, but it is a risk/reward type deal...

    For most men, they're afraid to get hurt, but it seems you think you'll lose your identity. Let me ask you this; How do you know your new identity won't be a better, more whole human being? Perhaps a soulmate is the natural connection humans strive for to make us whole and truly happy...

    Just make sure you keep the relationship honest and I'm sure it'll help you grow.
     
  3. #3 esseff, Sep 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2011
    It's not fear of attachment because I'm afraid of getting hurt, but when I become attached to anything, whether it's a person, an idea, whatever, it causes me to change in a way that leads to confusion and ultimately suffering. Buddhism, for example, reveals how attachment and suffering go hand in hand, and teaches a way out of both. Doesn't that make more sense?

    Well, I don't know about that, which is why I'm exploring this idea. Can I be whole with her? Can I be whole with anyone? And if I think I can, doesn't that imply that something must be missing that unless I find I'll always be incomplete?

    The idea of a soulmate sounds great, but anyone who's been in a long-term relationship knows you need to do a lot of work, even if you're really compatible.
     
  4. It's risk reward for me.. not sure why you think attachment automatically equals suffering but I'd disagree. My girl gives me happiness and has helped me learn a lot about myself. There's always the risk of suffering if I lose her, but it's one I'm willing to take for the reward.
     
  5. #5 esseff, Sep 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2011
    The thing is, I don't believe I can feel that kind of attachment without losing something we can't afford to give away. I have to find a way that doesn't involve the traditional idea of attachment, while still being real. For me, being a father matters more. For a long time we had to surrender our own wants and needs for our daughter. She was the reason we were together. You could say we had an arranged marriage, and in becoming a family, the difficulties of learning to be in relationship have taught me a lot about who I am. Perhaps I could never have found this piece without it.

    So in choosing to learn this, we've taken a journey that has opened the door to things I never expected, and I'm much better for it.
     
  6. I am at the point where I have given that idea up for now.....I think its in those times that one can really grow and learn more about who they really are. Im tired of believing/putting my trust in another that I am disappointed in. People can be great, but they can also be very shitty and selfish.

    Dont know when I'd meet anybody..lol..b/c I dont do bars..lol....and neither do I do church..lol again....Maybe a music fest. Guess it will just happen by chance...if it ever does again...and no more long distance relationships...ever...under any circumstances..hah
     
  7. And these doors were opened by your attachment to your daughter.

    Again, to me it sounds like you have a fear of attachment because you say you don't want to lose your singular identity.. What is it a relationship takes away in your opinion?

    Tesse: Music festies are GREAT places to meet GOOD people.
     
  8. #8 esseff, Sep 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2011
    There's a difference between losing her and letting her go. If she went because she no longer wanted you, you might suffer if you still wanted her. But if you'd had enough, or you knew it was for the best, there's no reason to suffer if she goes.

    We all know that relationships don't always last, and maybe that's how it has to be, at least until you find the right reason to be in one. There are many reasons that people enter into and then stay in relationships, and unless you have the right reasons, and you need to know yourself very well to know what they are, you may end up becoming attached to something just because it fulfils a need, not because it's right.
     

  9. Becoming a father was a very conscious decision. The first time I made love with her mother was to consciously open to her coming.


    Not a relationship per se, just one based on attachment. It takes away each person's ability to feel free to grow and move in any direction. Most relationships end up with the other person believing they always have a say in what each one does regardless.
     
  10. #10 DBV, Sep 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2011
    All relationships involve attachment.. and I see that as a very positive choice. I just don't understand what you think it is limiting? Find someone you truly care for and I think you'll understand.. don't just get into a relationship for the sake of doing so. Do it because you want to, not because you think you have too.

    edit: sorry, I read this as: Not a relationship per se based on attachment.. the rest I still suggest though. I think it depends on where you want to go in life.. some careers require being single, but in an open relationship, I'm willing to work with my girl to make sure were both happy.

    I think one thing I'm noticing for you is your very attached to your persona and it seems you want the freedom from not having to worry about making a loved one happy if it meant disregarding a personal goal. I think this will only change if and when you find someone you truly care about.

    I'm a firm believer in not worrying about the destination and enjoying the journey. It definitely helps to think you know who you are, but sometimes relationships help you answer that better than you can alone.
     
  11. Yes...Ive met great people at fests and music lovers are where its at..unfort Ive always been with a guy..lol....or if not...have only had eyes/ears for the music...:D


    Loving people in regard to attachment is not the issue....the attachment aspect...as you say..both of you..is about the needing instead of the choosing.
     
  12. This is why I could never get behind Buddhism. All of this 'attachment' nonsense (I don't use "nonsense" derogatorily; there's just no better word coming to mind right now). Attachment does not inevitably lead to suffering, unless you allow it to. A similar concept is present in Christianity, derived directly from the Psalmist- "The L-rd is my Shepherd, I shall not want." Those who still want see their faith as a failure, and derive suffering from that fact. This is based on a misunderstanding of what the Psalmist meant (partially due to the English translation). Maybe you're misunderstanding what Buddhism really means by "attachment leads to suffering."

    You say a relationship hinders personal growth in any direction either party should choose, and that it inevitably leads to one party feeling like they have a say in the actions of the other party. Does it need to, or is that just your perception of it?

    To really get to the bottom of this, what growth do you feel is hindered? Give me some examples.

    In my opinion, true love is a fusion of 2 souls. Love is just merely an attachment via emotional response. A person you are truly in love with becomes you, and you become them: you share a singular mind because of that bond, neither lacking for anything because you find that the other person completes you. That is where compromise comes into the picture- you want to do these things, at the sacrifice of your own ego, to complete the other person- to be together what they cannot be alone.
     
  13. #13 esseff, Sep 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2011
    nathann, I merely referred to buddhism as an example of where attachment and any suffering that ensues are seen as something to be let go of, not because I am a buddhist or have tried to follow this teaching.

    So, can I give you some examples?

    The falling in love aspect of a relationship, which is so heady and all consuming, doesn't last. When it fades, what's left exactly? If the relationship was based on sex, or sex played a big part from the beginning, in many cases it breaks. But that's fine. The vibrational state of the two people is too low anyway. However, if the connection was something deeper than just physical, and the couple have come together and had children, this union should hopefully hold things together through the more difficult times, so that in dealing with what arises, rather than running away from it, they both grow. That's the aim of a marriage as I see it.

    But, in my experience, most people in a relationship, end up falling into one form of power struggle or another. This is due to their lack of real personal development before it begins, and leaves plenty of room for selfishness, jealousy, unresolved previous relationship issues, stuff from childhood, insecure feelings, and more, that ends up getting in the way. The relationship can be abusive, possibly even violent, and it may even continue far longer than is healthy.

    That's one aspect of attachment.

    But what about where two people are compatible on many levels, get each other, laugh at similar things, enjoy spending time with one another, look after each other? They have developed to a point where they see life from a clearer perspective and can appreciate the differences that each bring to the table, without needing to merge them into one 'soul'.

    The idea of attachment causing problems, stems from not understanding how to allow the other to be free to do what they will. That because you're invested in this thing called relationship, as a result, you have an opinion on what your partner wants, to the point where you can be affected if they choose to do something you don't really approve of. This attachment removes objectivity. It gets in the way of what's right, and the only way to resolve it is either to attempt to control each other, which is what most people do, or leave.

    I seem to have gone on a bit and I'm not sure if I've answered you. If I really want something and discover I can't have it, my attachment to fulfilling my desire is what causes me to suffer, not my not getting the object of that desire per se. I can learn to let go of these attachments and desires, accept things as they are, and see myself and my life more clearly, and if I do, I can let go of suffering along the way.

    I'll have to leave it there for now.
     
  14. #14 esseff, Sep 19, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 19, 2011
    I wanted to draw attention to this part, and have adjusted it slightly as well, as I feel those who replied may have drawn the wrong inference.

    We use the word 'falling' in love for a reason.

    We each walk a spiritual path, and that path should be leading towards the understanding and connecting with truth or god or whatever you call it.

    If we give away that part of us that must always look 'up', so to speak, when entering into a relationship, without understanding that we must replace it with something that is just as sacred, we will always lose it or suffer until we do it differently.
     
  15. Bump aimed @ nathann
     
  16. ok so ...im not nathan;):smoke:

    but ....idk if i am even close to what you are getting at but.....

    we can at times lose ourselves completely in another person.....
    and fall from our path...
    leave parts of ourself that were once important to us behind so as to become more of what that person wants us to be....
    love in this case is a knife which cuts us to the bone
    it carves away parts of who we are and molds us into something we are not.....

    of coarse this is not always the case...

    and of coarse......sometimes these changes are for the better!!!
    noone can decide but you.....

    it is easy for us to become so entwined in one another that we lose ourselves.....

    find the right human to entwine with......and you can lift one another to new heights.....
    the wrong human ...will drag you into a self created hell
     
  17. You may not be nathann, but you'll definitely do! ;)

    You're closer than anyone else.:smoke:
     
  18. There are times when the lifting into new heights feels obvious, while at other times, hell can creep up so quietly that before you know it, you're in it again.
     

  19. been down that road more then a few times.......

    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c3g6tTYoxM&ob=av2e]Queensryche - I Don't Believe In Love - YouTube[/ame]
     
  20. Sounds a little bit like Bon Jovi :smoke:

    The lyrics seem to be that because we feel pain as a result of love, we'd better not feel love again as it will only cause pain again.

    I can understand why someone would feel that way, I know I have. But, they're not sentiments I can really relate to anymore. Without feeling pain, I'm not sure I would ever come to understand myself properly.
     

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