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Finally, the end of Spiritualism?

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by MelT, Oct 17, 2006.

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  1. #1 MelT, Oct 17, 2006
    Not that I don't believe in some forms of psychic phenomena, Spiritualism is nothing but cold reading and the mass chance effect. Ask if anybody in an audience of 20 people knows someone with a name behing with 'T' and you get lots of hits. Anyway, one of the top guys in the UK is coming clean about it all and saying it's a con.

    The first defence from Spiritualism will be that whilst HE might be a fraud, the rest of the supposed adepts in its church are still able to do what they claim. But this is a big blow, this guy has done thousands of readings and is usually held up as one of the really talented psychics - and he's going to rat on the rest of them too.

    Ahhhhhh, I love the smell of a failing scam in the mornings....:)

    http://paranormalreview.com/News/tabid/59/newsid368/50/mid/368/Default.aspx


    MelT
     
  2. #2 TheRiz, Oct 17, 2006
    I just wish there were more people that realize this. Spiritualism is a bunch of horse shit. End of story.

    While on the topic of psychics, watch Penn & Teller's Bullshit on mindreading, tarot cards, and talking to the dead. They even do ouiji boards. They can DEBUNK these things by doing experiments that completely and utterly prove it is total BULLSHIT, and a scam. People who make a living doing this are cold reading people, and convince ignorant them to believe anything the pyschic says.
     
  3. #3 MelT, Oct 17, 2006
    Yep. I've got a couple of books out on Mentalism (not sure if you've have heard of that? Do the names Banachek/Richard Osterlind/Darren Brown sound familiar at all?)at present and perform from time to time still. Some of the methods that I and other mentalists use can easily make an audience believe that someone is psychic. You can do a hell of lot just with cold reading.

    MelT
     
  4. #4 Digit, Oct 18, 2006
    yep, that word i always found a little unpalatable in it's ambiguity.
     
  5. #5 MorningTrip, Oct 19, 2006
    I think you're all a bunch of fucking rats.
     
  6. #6 Shouse1018, Oct 19, 2006
    Just cause that british dude is fake doesn't mean every single last one of them is fake.

    Christ has powers and According to Revelation in the 'end days' people will actually

    have special gifts(powers). How people use them is their choice as is salvation.
     
  7. #7 MorningTrip, Oct 19, 2006
    You wanna see defense, Runner's High?

    Alright, I'll defend my spirituality when you prove spiritualism a fraud.
     
  8. #8 MelT, Oct 19, 2006
    Spiritism (spiritualism )
    Spiritism or spiritualism is the belief that the human personality survives death and can communicate with the living through a sensitive medium. The spiritualist movement began in 1848 in upstate New York with the Fox sisters who claimed that spirits communicated with them by rapping on tables. (The "raps" were actually made by cracking their toe joints.) By the time the sisters admitted their fraud some thirty years later, there were tens of thousands of mediums holding séances where spirits entertained with numerous magical tricks such as making sounds, materializing objects, making lights glow, levitating tables and moving objects across the room. The mediums demonstrated every variety of psychic power from clairvoyance and clairaudience to telekinesis and telepathy. Repeated charges of fraud did little to stop the spiritualist movement until the 1920's when magicians such as Houdini exposed the techniques and methods of deceit used by mediums to fool even the wisest and holiest of men and women.

    My mother in law goes to a Spiritulist church and there is no doubt whatsoever that it does her good, but that doesn't make it real. But persausive? Very much so if you don't understand cold reading. I sat in once a week for 10 months on sessions with her and saw some of the 'best' performers they had, including the above. Only once did I hear something that at the time I couldn't explain, but which I figured out later. Most of what was happening can be done by simple, basic Mentalism - and some much sneakier methods that I hope this man finally exposes. There are careers and much money at stake here, people will stoop very low to hold onto their reputations, including bugging rooms, prior knowldge of a subject's background, etc.

    As a part of my research into my first book I took a place at a local venue and touted myself as a real live psychic and Tarot reader. Using cold reading and other obvious clues about my subjects I got some seemingly excellent hits to the point where one woman wanted to tip me £20 on top of my £10 fee for 'revealing so much about her life'. All monies were of course returned and what I'd done and how was explained to each sitter. It is far, far easier to fool people who want to believe than you might imagine.


    MelT
     
  9. #9 TheRiz, Oct 19, 2006
    I'd like to see you prove that it is 'real,' and not just a feel-good idealogy or an actual presence of 'spirits.'

    Oh yeah, faith is not a good reason, it's the worst.
     
  10. #10 Rasta_Man, Oct 19, 2006
    I think both views are flawed.

    The total (and to be blunt) ungrounded denial of spiritualism is the exact same mentality as the unbridled acceptance. Your arguing two different sides of one coin.

    I have a beleif of the universe founded almost entirley in science and logic. Having a minor understanding of quantum physics and string-theory, I know that there is no way to disprove spiritualism.

    Based on our day-to-day perceptions it seems impossible, but we have such an incredibly limited view of our multiverse, such rash denials based on social medians is equally illogical from my standpoint.

    Im pretty stoned and my train of thought keeps stopping to look at the scenery, so I'm putting and end to this post.
     
  11. #11 Zylark, Oct 19, 2006
    No surprises here. The socalled spiritualists use mentalist (a branch of the magician trade) techniques to pry information out of unwitting audiences. Mostly cold reading (an avalanch of binary questions and applying some common sense deduction) and/or warm reading (prying information from the subject beforehand, usually by "undercover" helpers in the lobby area before a show).

    Remember when you watch TV-Psychic shows, that you're watching TV. A 4-5 hour session is cut down to approx. 20 minutes. Leaving in the few hits and all the misses end up on the cutting floor.

    For more on this, www.randi.org is a great resource.

    But in any case, it's not the job of skeptics to disprove spiritualism. It's the job of the spiritualists to prove their "theory" and practice as factual. So far, they've not managed to do just that. They've made outragous claims, but so far no facts to back them up. And quite a few have been swatted down as fakers.

    But still people persist to believe. Their loss. Personally I prefer living in the real world. Claims require facts. No facts to back up a claim, and it's simply not trustworthy. So at least I'm not giving money, credit or authority to charlatans and crooks.

    Oh, and Rastaman; String-Theory or multiverses are speculation. Well reasoned and intriguing speculation, but nonetheless by no means proven, with (currently) approx. zero evidence going for it. The only prediction M (string) -Theory have made, is that there should exist gravitons that escape this universe into other universes. So far no gravitons have been detected, and by the looks of it, never will.
     
  12. #12 MelT, Oct 19, 2006



    I don't think that a criticism of Spiritualism is ungrounded by any means, for the reasons I say above. I also see nothing rash in waiting to have it proven to me rather than blindly accepting it as real, *that* to me is illogical. With more evidence against it than for it, I have to go with what to me is so far insurmountable evidence. However, if you want to believe in it, good luck to you, you're just as entitled to that view as I am mine.

    Melt
     
  13. #13 runner's high, Oct 19, 2006
    Yes. *Holds breath in anticipation*

    ...That was your defense?

    If you didn't notice, MorningTrip, I never said I doubted Spiritualism or spirituality in general. I only said that if you support these things you should defend them, not curse at people who disagree with you. Anyway, your post reminded me of one of my favorite movie quotes:

    Classic.
     
  14. #14 MorningTrip, Oct 20, 2006
    I guess you didn't get the jist of my post.

    It's not something that can be proven one way or another. It's just something to believe for your own personal gain.

    ... I am surrounded by fools!
     
  15. #15 MorningTrip, Oct 20, 2006
    Right, and I feel as though I shouldn't have to defend something I personally believe.

    And next time, don't get so defensive(pun intended, indeed).;)
    If I feel like calling somebody a rat, goddamit I'll fuckin' call 'em a rat.
     
  16. #16 Zylark, Oct 20, 2006
    But you do make a fool out of yourself MorningTrip. You do not explain your view, you give no reason. Yet you call others fools for not subscribing to your point of view.

    you assume what you believe is self-evident, thus commiting the biggest logical fallacy of all; argumenting out of ignorance.

    So please, explain what you believe in, and let us discuss it.

    Oh, and for spiritualism to be true, you only need to prove it...

    oooops.
     
  17. #17 TheRiz, Oct 20, 2006

    Just something to believe for your own personal gain? What the hell does that mean? Seriously man, don't call anyone a fool unless you are going to actually give me a reason to consider your ignorant 'spiritual' view.
     
  18. #18 naku06, Oct 20, 2006
    Whoa..im late on this one.

    But to shove another piont of view onto the situation, already slightly covered by rasta: Its good to keep the open mind to both side of the "arguement." spritualism may exist, may not....of course after a very short period of thought, ive come to the question, that has been repeated several times.

    "Weres the proof?"

    I have no doubt (its been proven) that some of these individuals are using faults and trickeries to purswade their audience into believe the acts are real, weither a excelent gain for these persons or a de-grading program.

    Still leaves the other question open.

    "What if its real?"

    Please go on morning trip, i want to hear logical reasoning.
     
  19. #19 runner's high, Oct 20, 2006
    Wise words, Zylark.

    So, if it's not something that can be proven, why are we fools for disbelieving it? Aren't our beliefs, then, as valid as yours?

    If you believe you are entitled to personal beliefs then why can't you respect different ones? Are you the only one who gets this freedom?

    Pun intended? That's funny, I didn't see one.
     
  20. #20 MorningTrip, Oct 20, 2006
    Haha! Wow... ya'll take everything WAY too seriously.:rolleyes:

    We're all gonna die anyway... so on the bright side, it doesn't really matter.
     
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