faith is the opposite of logic

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by froggy, May 13, 2006.

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  1. thats right. if ur a person of faith, u must necessarily be opposed to logic.

    so that means that u feel math is wrong, that 2 + 2 may or maynot = 4.

    here is what is funny about the situation. picture 2 people, a man of faith and a man of logic, going to drugstore and buying a fingernail clippers.

    lets pretend there is two different packages of clippers;
    one is seethru, costs .99$ and says it will absolutely cut ur fingernails, with a picture of someone actually using the device that u can see thru the plastic.

    the other is a dark bag, has all kinds of fantastic sayings on it like; its the best fingernailclippers, it clips anything from wood to steel, it will last forever in a cloud like state if u only believe that its the best clippers and all other clippers are crazy and should be killed, and by the way, u should pay 10% of all ur income for the clippers.

    funny how no one has faith to buy the covered bag of clippers but will have faith in how the run the whole of their lives and their childerens lives...tho its the very same leap of faith.

    strange how most ppl of god dont go to faith healers but ppl of science, ie doctors. never saw anyone that got their teeth cleaned by a faith cleaner, but more like a dentist. funny how logic is the language of computers, which anyone on this site reading must necessarily believe is accurate. funny how ppl dont use faith in anything other than how they make decisions where they dont want to actually use logic, where faith is the easy answer.

    dont like my ananogy? go ahead and read more. there is plenty to read if u just actually read sumthing other than god chat...


    http://www.utulsa.edu/collegian/article.asp?article=1015
     
  2. I 100% agree with you.

    I don\'t understand how people are born into a religion and just accept it their whole lives.

    I was born into the catholic faith. i went to catholic school until 10th grade and hated it. hated going to church. there just isn\'t anything tangible in religion. it\'s all just heresay.

    i sure as hell am not going to live my life by some book written over a thousand years ago, it\'s just silly. people live\'s back then are so completely different from our lives now.

    For me, no religion has any proof at all. It\'s all just speculation as to why we are here.

    No matter what the explanation is, I will conduct my life in the way I see fit. If you don\'t like that, live your life whatever way you want it and leave me alone.

    I think for the rest of my life I will remain without a religion because I don\'t see how I will ever find out for sure the answers that so many of us seek through religion.
     
  3. You have to think with your gut, just like Stephen Colbert said. He knows he\'s right because his gut told him so. :D
     
  4. if you believe something w/o reason, its stupidity. faith is just a fad (one of the larger ones, mind you) following the same concept, and because the nature of the human mind, being taught at a young age of a \"god\" and hope, we change the idea of what a wish is, making it larger than it really IS: just that, a wish.

    it all comes down to the blind leading the blind, thus: creating a false reality based on supporting itself, thats why its still around today. i hope in my life time, people wake up and start believing in what is logical and explainable.
     
  5. I don\'t think \"faith\" is the same as blindly following the authority of an institution (of course that depends on how you define the word). Faith is about freeing your mind, not closing it.

    I can understand how anyone can be critical of organized religion, but it\'s important to see past the rituals and the conventions associated with church-going to the very real spiritual cleansing that they\'re (supposed) to symbolise. Actions like praying, confessing, or even charity work are empty if you don\'t actually commit your heart to them.

    But now let\'s talk about logic. In the west we\'ve built a dangerous cult around rational thinking. Cold, detached analysis of people and events have become the norm of what\'s considered \"intelligent\" and \"enlightened\". Scientists no longer feel responsible for the research that they do. The inventor of napalm refused to judge the morality of his creation stating that he was just the one \"who invented it\". This mentality is incredibly dangerous and is the reason why we readily have at our disposition so many deadly weapons and chemicals.

    Now a lot of people would say that the scientist is a being of pure logic and rationale and that it\'s not up to him to decide what use his research is put to. I think that this is because we\'ve got it in our heads that the logical mind is the current pinacle of human evolution, and it\'s highest state of consciousness.

    There\'s no doubt that logic is something that can be used to accomplish great and wonderful things, but just like a machine, it has no intrisinc value of good or evil. Even if you built a computer as complex as a human brain it would still not be human, because human consciousness is much more than a cold unfeeling reasoning machine.

    You cannot fully experience life through logic. If you go around trying to reduce everything you see to schematics and formulas, you\'ll end up detaching yourself from the world completely. That\'s because logic can only draw \"models\" of reality, it is not the living experience of reality itself. The analytical way of seeing things is, in my opinion, a kind of shield protecting us from the uncertainty of life. It\'s a way to try and make things seem \"solid\" and permanent, when in fact they are not.

    So what is faith then? The famous \"leap of faith\" is the act of letting go of the part of our minds that is constantly trying to categorize and judge the experiences we\'re having. This same part of our mind is what generates our egos, our desires and our expectations, and we\'re convinced that we\'ve got to have it running in order to be \"real\". But actually it\'s what\'s keeping us from experiencing reality in it\'s purest, unfiltered form.

    I think that\'s what faith is. The heart power needed to turn off your mind, relax and float down stream:smoke:
     
  6. dammit andy, you think the same way as me, but you can express it much better. im getting tired of that :p
     
  7. As long as your a good person.. I really dont care who/whom/what you call god.
     
  8. that is the problem, in my mind, in the first place. if you give into \"faith\"-like thoughts, you loose your rational thoughts. what happens if letting a mind \"flow\" breaks the bonds in which thoughts connect themself in a person\'s mind? you start making up stuff, like coming back to life and walking on water, im sorry sir...but you are thinking within the system instead of looking at it for what humans do, most likely the fault of a \"belonging\" feeling desired and shared by all.

    it very simple how i get to my points: you can explain science and how a community runs: just like a machine( action and reaction)...you cant explain god, its not possible unless \"he\"/\"she\"/\"it\"comes down/up and shows presents. and to battle that theory. if you look for something you cant explain, the mind makes up and figures was out to make it work ( like filling in the gaps with your own creations).

    as far as science goes, information doesnt have a \"side\" to choose. its just information. you actually help prove me right. you have shown me that if you are in the system, you are just a \"cog\" in step with its plan. if you still belong to a system, you will never be able to anylize it to it\'s fullest and understand. you must not belong to it and look at its members. how they react and take care of thier problems. this is what i said before, chirstianity, buddism, paganism....all of them have the same trait though out: it supports its own being, if so; the human mind has the tendance to keep it alive at any cost; eg. christians killing in early history on crusades and sorry to say but: 9/11. these are act just supporting the base belief.

    as far as your \"leap of faith\" theory, i believe it to be udder rubbish. if you dont base you reactions on your experiences, then what basis do you have for having the reaction? that is pure stupidity, im sorry to be so harsh, but ive dealt w/ this \"idea\" before. i see it as a way of giving up all your work on memerizing and learning how the social structure works and just throwing it all down the drain.

    i live life, w/o religion. i dont need it, i understand beyond a \"guide\" how to be moral and true to myself. i dont need a book to understand what is right and rightious. if people would just stop depending on a guide, they might understand what is good or bad for themself.


    thank you for your times.
    -N-

    edit: if you know im speaking of, this all follows the \"stand alone complex\" theory.
     
  9. i absolutely agree naku.

    no one argues that faith is the opposite of logic, its a given. look it up for urself in the dictionary.

    a leap of faith is dumb. why on earth would someone as a thinking person throw away logic for rumor?

    here is another thing about faith. lets say u use the argument of testimonials. and as a \'believer\' u use other testimonials as proof that there is god. which is a rational thing to do. but what about all the other testimonials in the world that are different than urs? a logical person would have to use all of them. yet, they dont. they claim the proof of testimonial but when i bring up all the testimonials they want, they dont want those, they only want the \'right\' ones. or they say they see god in all kinds of deeds. but what about all the deeds? u mean when someone is jacking off to kiddy snuff porn, that particular deed they see god? ofc not, they again pick and choose.

    i think the invention of the \'record\' is one of the greatest inventions that we can use to find the truth. for every testimonial they have, i have 10000 bad ugly ones to show how their leap of faith is illogical, how logic should trump faith in all circumstances and that the word \'faith\' should be erraticated from our lexicon
     
  10. if someone has to use testimonials to prove their \'god\' exists then they are on the completely wrong track. \'god\' is something everyone experiences for themselves, even if that person doesnt believe in any \'god\'. all religion could be wrong, but i am right.

    not even science is logical. look at quantom physics/mechanics, look at black matter and the \'big bang\'. im sure someday it would be possible to explain all of science, but today is not that day, i just have faith that someday we will understand logic. ;)

    and what truth would that be?
     
  11. you dont know the definition of truth?

    1 a archaic : [SIZE=-1]FIDELITY[/SIZE], [SIZE=-1]CONSTANCY[/SIZE] b : sincerity in action, character, and utterance
    2 a (1) : the state of being the case : [SIZE=-1]FACT[/SIZE] (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : [SIZE=-1]ACTUALITY[/SIZE] (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality b : a judgment, proposition, or idea that is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics> c : the body of true statements and propositions
    3 a : the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality b chiefly British : [SIZE=-1]TRUE [/SIZE]2 c : fidelity to an original or to a standard
    4 capitalized, Christian Science : [SIZE=-1]GOD[/SIZE]
    - in truth : in accordance with fact : [SIZE=-1]ACTUALLY[/SIZE]

    (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/truth)


    again this supports my theory of a self indulgent system. that is the back bone of all theoredical faith-based religions.

    if god is something base by the individual level not the social structure, then why do we have churches, and belief systems still today.

    i will meet you on a level though, i do belieive humans are no where near the intelect (as a whole) where they need be, but your theory has flaws.

    as a religion, it uses \"good\" ideas to reqruit and keep its memeber calling themselves apart of it. i put \"good\" in quotes because there are religions that dont follow the same moral codes.

    these in-turn create a people that think they are doing the right thing for keeping thier belief alive, in my mind, that is the most dangerous thing ive ever seen. they give up logic thought to support a cause they havent created, but joined into. eg. \"if kill myself in a suiside bombing, i will be greeted by seven virgins in heaven\" if this theory is wrong, they have just killed themself, people around them and destroyed all hope for a complete life cycle.

    you again, give into the systems \"what if\" theory, which keep many if not all member in fear and obeying the structure layed out before them.
     

  12. Listen it\'s pretty obvious that religious zealotism is a bad thing and is pretty far from the original example set by whatever prophet a religion was based on. You\'ve got to give up the whole \"Look at how dumb they are look how smart I am\" complex and realize the obvious difference in between spiritual clarity and fundamentalist dogma.


    There are no \"faith-like\" thoughts, the leap of faith is the act of stepping beyond your verbal mind. A lot of people have trouble letting this concept sink in because we\'ve been conditioned to believe that the rational mind is the best, in fact, the only way of experiencing the world.

    Living organisms have gone through many ways of interacting with the exterior world. At a very basic level, the nerve system receives signals and reacts instantly. Think of how quickly your hand snaps back when you lay it on something hot. After this, organisms evolved primal emotions, like sexual desire and rage. Notice how animals (and humans), can deal with pain in order reproduce or protect their young? This is because the consciousness of animals and primitive humans was not limited to a single nerve system, but expanded to include the interests of their immediate society and their offspring. So what came next? When humans started developing language, they found the need to represent things with symbols, which evolved into ideas and concepts. Rational thinking was born.

    Notice how rational thinking often supercedes emotions and immediate sense impressions? Anger, for example, is calmed by understanding. Rational thinking doesn\'t negate emotions or the physical senses, it transcends them. This is how the expansion of consciousness works, whenever it reaches a new level, it supercedes the last. You would be willing to have a painful operation done to you if you knew that it would save your life. This is your rational mind trumping your physical impressions: you still feel the pain but you are not controled by it. You rise above it.

    But think of this: didn\'t it require something similar to faith to let go of the pain and trust in the value of your logical mind? You couldn\'t get an animal to relax and be operated on since they cannot understand logic and aren\'t prepared to take that leap. They are still at a level where they are controled by feelings and pain.

    Once we understand this, we can start asking: have our minds really figured out the universe? Are we at the pinacle of evolution? Or is there a step we can take that goes even higher than emotions and the rational mind? If there is, you cannot grasp it by using theories and formulas since, by nature, it is beyond the realm of reasoning. You cannot understand it in that way because you\'re still, as you said, thinking within the same system.

    We\'ve spent so long building up an identity and notions of how the world works and what our place is in it that it seems like a tall order to be asked to stop and realize that they\'re all illusions. It takes faith to realize that there\'s a larger reality... but it\'s not something that you intellectualize about or blindly believe in. When you truely let go and open your heart to the higher power the feeling is immediate. It\'s so strong in fact that it lasts only for a second before you have a mental backlash and try to make \"sense\" of what is happening, before you try to make it fit into a box of concepts and rationale, and in an instant you\'re back where you were. But you\'ll never forget that instant where you were truely awake, when you woke from a dream that you\'ve been living your whole life.

    These kinds of flashes seem to happen spontaneously. Your mind can\'t recreate them, they originate at a much, much deeper level. Our egos are so strong that truely taking the plunge is a very, very difficult thing to do, but it truely is the only way to free your mind.
     
  13. i retire from this thread because:

    1.ive been insulted
    becuase if you had read my earlier posts, i never think im right...never, it keeps me learning.

    2. if you look at what humans are: just organism, with different receptors, that is all.
    wheither you like it or not, that is all we are, just another bullshit community based on making our self seem safe and confortable. its not dogma, its just human nature spoken though a system.

    now the first post to this thread was about: faith and logic. using the information we know NOW, faith is a muckery still bent on making the homosapien race feel wanted amounst themselve. take away all these stupid antics and you get, just a machine responding to actions that are layed before him/her. again i say: we are just moving complexs that give and receive data, manipulating to create a world that we like.

    a thought isnt words: i said a thought, has nothing to do with my mouth. and oh yeah...rational is better, or are you agianst all that seems fair and just. its hard enough being a human, than to have certain people believing that they are above the rest because \"their god told them they where\" well you know what? if i said \"my god told me i was right.\" you would see just how bull my statement was.

    it hurts people, but; it all come down to trying to make ourselves feel better and in control. emotion are learned; though pain, reward and loss. we put a label on it so it seems important.
    eg.
    oh yeah those flash are just memories. if you cant recreate them, then you have a problem searching for exactly what you want out of your stored memories.

    im done w/ the conversation now, my view are too dismal from others. and i dont want someone to get a downer from reading this.

    i dont want to make enemies so i leave this at: weither you have a longing for god or dont beleive in him, or fall into catagories inbetween, please dont let someone else control the way you want to think. me, or andyPL, or anyone. what you feel is right is the way you should run your life. i get into these discutions because i enjoy to debate, always have. and im fasinated by different social views.
     
  14. we use the record to find the truth.

    and frankly i think the only way to find the truth is to weed out the opinions and record the facts. when Osama stands up and makes a statement, that is the record. when bush stands up and makes a statement, that is also a record. now that we have those 2 opposing records, we can start to define the truth in them.

    without that record, people can continue to state opinions without factual checking.
     
  15. im sorry but im assuming that the ppl here discussing logic has had some training in the science. if not, here is a link to some training.

    and the reason the record is so importing, is because one needs to place the statement in a logical syllogism. that way, humans have build truths.

    http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/e08a.htm
     
  16. LOL. . . . .You guys make things sooooooooooo difficult, lol.

    everybody nowadays is always trying to prove something with evidence.

    Somethings just cannot be proven.

    Ya know froggy, for someone who \"knows\" the truth you sure are kinda pushy about

    your beliefs. I also believe I \"know\" the truth. Surely my truth is different than yours.

    The thing that pleases me is the fact that you have had much time to think about the

    subject of God. That lets me know that God does work inside of you. Often the

    hardest battle fought in Christianity is with One\'s self. I do hope however you find

    the light that God shines down upon us. Peace be with you. . . .
     
  17. stop that! you cant put \"god\" into me...i cover the subject of god becuase its a burden on sociaty, not becuase \"he/she/it\" chose for me to think about it. the only thing everyone has control of is thier own thoughts, unless they fall into a folowing eg. such as a relgion, we all are are doing it right now, just ask yourself, why do you post on this forum, to link yourself to the social actings of cannabis users....UGH! i broke my vow of dismissal for this....just stop it.
     

  18. So you\'re telling me that just because I believe in God, Christ, and The holy spirit that

    I\'m not longer thinking for myself. If anything I would say I think more for myself

    and others Than others without any guidance. What\'s wrong with Choosing to believe

    in a creator who Tells us We do not have to Do what he asks But IF we Do we will be

    rewarded with everlasting life. If you ask me, people without Guidance are guilty

    of Not thinking for themselves. after all isn\'t science aimed at Proving Man against

    God? You tell me one thing that Your science has created that we absolutely Needed.

    You can\'t. It does not exist. Man does not Create. Man just uses what\'s already

    there.

    And sure you can go on and on and on and on about your damned Evolutionist

    theories all day long, it doesn\'t bother me. Everyday when i walk

    out of my door and look at my natural surroundings, all the different types of plants

    and animals all with a unique function, design, and purpose, I know that we were

    created for special purpose. Having purpose gives me strength.
     
  19. please pray tell this purpose of yours im dying to hear?


    YES!
     

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