I don't want to bash on prayer, but I would like to have an intelligent discussion about the effectiveness of prayer. I grew up in a culture where prayer was around all the time, and I have even been to multiple revival style christian services. I used to be a alter call counseler, so I would pray for people who came forward during alter calls. I also have been involved in many services and meetings where "gifts of the holy spirit" were being used. I have left those days behind me though. Therefore let us discuss prayer... My Opinion: I believe in mind over matter and I believe in the power of the human mind
I do believe in the effectiveness of prayer. The problem, however, is that most people don't know how to pray effectively, or are simply unable to do it. The effectiveness of prayer is in direct proportion to the intensity of your devotion and concentration. Very few people have trained their concentration in such a way as to make it powerful enough to make prayer truly effective. If you concentrate fully on a thing, and give your whole mind to it while you pray (this is the part that for most is not possible), and are determined to keep praying until it's answered, then it will be so imo. The prayer that is usually done is nothing like this, the loud emotional prayers that are done in churches are actually the exact opposite of how one should pray. You have to direct all of your energy and attention inwards, and focus it solely on your object of prayer. In loud bursts of emotion your concentration and focus is completely outward in flow, towards matter and mental agitation. An analogy would be trying to broadcast a signal from an antenna. When you are emotional and moving around, it causes huge interference in the atmosphere of your mind, making your antenna very weak in order to broadcast your signal, your prayer. When you sit totally motionless, with all of your mind, energy, focus, and concentration under your control, then your mind is still and there is no more interference. Then when you broadcast your prayer, it is infinitely stronger and more focused, so it's able to bring about real results. This is what is meant in Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God" That is the prayer method of the yogis.
I do like your thoughts about focus and concentration in regards to prayer, but what kind of things are we talking about that can be effected with such powerful prayers? For example, I have seen men walk around a room and just touch people on the head and almost every time the person will fall over on the ground and be seemingly stuck in a trance for quite a while, often times these people are alledgedly healed during their trance but I can not tell you whether or not I ever saw one person healed for a fact out of the thousands of people I have seen prayed for where they fell over into a trance. Also who is the one who needs the power of concentration and devotion in the prayer... the person being prayed for, or the person praying, or both?
My opinion: I believe in God and having a relationship with Him. I believe when the Spirit of God is imputed into a soul, you begin that relational experience. I believe prayer is merely conversing with God, expressing your true thoughts (whether they be "bad" or "good") and being honest with Him and your "self". It has done wonders in terms of revealing my heart to myself as well as being quick to thank God for answering supplications.
can we stay on topic meddlehaze... I always like hearing from you but I would rather you contribute rather than tell me more about yourself. I know what you believe, but how about we start talking about the effectiveness of prayer. I am especially interested to hear your opinions on the gifts of the spirit and whether or not they are real or whether using them actually gets the work of God done, and also whether it is the person praying or the person being prayed for who has to have the faith for healing to occur
I apologize, I thought you were interested in our opinions of prayer and it's effectiveness. I don't believe our prayers get any of God's work done considering I believe He's an Entity. I also don't believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit (which include healing) are active today as they were in the days of Pentecost. I form this belief off of Hebrews 1 where the author says, "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." His final Word has been completed in Christ.
my bad, missed where you said what you thought prayer was in your first post meddlehaze. you say prayer is conversing with God your thoughts but how does this do any good for anyone? I mean sure it makes it so that you personally feel like you are close to God and you believe that by being close to God and living like Jesus that other people will automatically see the merit in your way of living and possibly start living like you... but doesn't everyone in the world contimplate the good and the bad in their own subjective opinions anyway? I mean I don't act like I am talking to God all day but I do think... is thinking praying?
No big man. Well, it causes my heart to change and deepen my relationship with Him. For example, if I'm praying out of selfish ambition I will realize it sooner or later and begin to let God fix my desires (heart) and direct them to Him and His will not my "self". I must say, I do not hope anyone live like me, more so Jesus (but I don't force this upon anyone). I don't try to live like Him for others, but for Him alone. If others begin to change their hearts due to what Christ has done in mine, then that is just a gracious bonus ya know? I don't really believe thinking is necessarily praying. I believe praying is having a 1 on 1 conversation with God giving Him thanks or supplications. Of course, I do not hear a person speaking back to me, but after I have given my supplications I live in peace knowing that God has all of it under control and I don't have to worry about anything. I would say peace and trust (faith)are more aspects of prayer's effectiveness
I get a lot of peace out of thinking too, having thoughts of being content with my circumstances, feeling at home where ever I go... and I do not have anyone speak back either. Self reflection helps me better myself everyday too. Having a positive mindset about everything keeps me happy and keeps good things happening too.
The person who is doing the praying needs to have the concentration and devotion. If the person being prayed for has an equal amount of concentration power, then that person could simply pray for themselves. The things that can be effected through powerful prayer are nearly limitless. Those people who fall on the floor after being touched are simply on a big spike of emotion. It's just in their imagination, nothing more. Real healings aren't conducted in that way. Sometimes some people are genuinely healed that way, but it's because the person who wants to be healed is so full of faith that they open up a channel through which they heal themselves with their faith and mental power. It is never the pastor or preacher. They people who lay hands on others in general have no real power of their own.
I agree with you I think, though I am not one to pray really. I certainly believe that our thoughts have power and many people are unaware of this. I strive to keep my thoughts positive always because I think that negative thoughts negatively affect reality. Also I definitely agree that the people who were healed during the revival style services I have been to healed themselves through mind over matter style thougts. I personally believe that you can keep yourself healthy always through your thoughts and you can heal yourself through your thoughts. I am curious though, do you have any examples of prayers being answered that can not be explained by someone using their own mind to heal themselves?
The various strories of resurrection would be one example. Obviously a dead person did not bring themselves back to life. Whether you believe such accounts is up to you. One well known example is Jesus resurrecting his friend Lazarus. There are many examples of resurrection from various exatled spiritual people throughout history.
yeah I have heard stories of people being raised from the dead... I personally don't believe them I guess. I mean they could be true, but to me I think that if God is real then he wouldn't make the mistake to let someone die in the first place who he was going to bring back to life unless it was for the purpose of letting the world know he was real, but there are no mainstream accounts of people being raised from the dead with undeniable evidence to support it.
God doesn't make mistakes. Our time of death is not determined by God, it's determined by our own karma that has been accumulated from this and previous lives. When you die your astral body leaves the physical shell. The process of bringing someone back is the opposite. A master can direct that person's astral body to re-enter the physical shell, then the master repairs the dead body. Many times the master must also take some some of the other persons bad karma onto himself in order to satisfy karmic law. You are correct as far as the reason why it's done. It's done to give faith and hope to the deluded masses, who if never given a glipse of divinity would be mired in hopelessness. God doesn't wish these things to be displayed very openly though, or it would infringe on the free will he gave to us.
I used to believe the same thing but the way I see it now is prayer is us talking and meditation is us listening ya dig?
Why pray if you believe in the divine plan? Most prayers that I think of aren't conversations with God or the creator, at all. They're more of a request. Do this, please help me with this, how do I do this? That kind of shit. I never understood prayer. Can someone please explain to me why they pray? Is it a comfort thing? Are you lonely?