Do you believe in God?

Discussion in 'Pandora's Box' started by BluntCruisin, May 24, 2010.

  1. #81 stp12986, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2010


    Yes I understand the basics to the theroy of evolution to the extent that it was taught in my college classes and from independent research though no expert. I never implied that monkeys gave birth to humans? Not sure where you got that. Yes I have heard of Neanderthals, I understand that they are an extinct species. Other than the fact that they look similar to humans (more monkey to me) in skeletal structure does not prove that they were human, or early humans. It proves that there was a species that might have looked similar judging by the skeletal structure and had similar dna structure (just like monkeys). There is no proof otherwise and therefore you have faith that it is true.

    Yes you believe that evolution is continuing to process because of proof? All i'm saying that that I am believing the teachings of scripture and you are choosing to believe scientists (that are incredibly inconsistent on the subject) it takes more faith to believe.

    I do believe in natural selection to the point of it being survival of the fittest. I think that humans continue to exist because we were created with a greater level of inteligence, emotions, care, survival skills, etc. (In Gods image)

    There were mentally handicap people thousands of years ago (historical documentation), just like there are handicap people now. Depending on the culture they lived in determined whether the people were compassionate enough to take care of them or not. And mentally handicap people are not a seperate species, they have been around as long as there have been humans.

    And things dont "just happen" today in the same way as when the earth was created because...the earth is already created? It needs not be created again.

    And you are describing carbon dating and saying its true. Just describing some of the basics of carbon dating is going to make me believe its accuracy just as much as me straight up telling you that the earth was created. I have read numerous articles of scientists carbon dating something and recording its age at a lot older than the object actually was. Therefore I am skeptical of it. I dont have faith in carbon dating as an accurate way to judge the age of the earth.
     
  2. So you really believe that one man built a huge ark by himself, then was able to travel the entire world and gather 2 of every animal?? Lets see theres about 2 million known species on earth but there is believed to be anywhere from 3-30 million species on earth. So how was one man able to gather all of these different animals from all over the world and bring them to this huge ark that he built by himself??? Then he would have to get a ton of food to keep all these animals fed while he was on the ark...because u know if you don't animals do eat other animals.

    Meanwhile i want to know why noone elses boats worked back then?? Because i know they had boats, so what did everyone elses just magically stop floating???

    What i find funny is the shows that you see with people looking for the Ark. If there was an Ark i really don't think it would be that hard to find considering how massive it would of had to been to fit all the animals on earth on it.
     
  3. First off just because one story in the Bible is hard to believe is definitly no justice for not believing the entirety of it.

    Saying that, heck yea its hard to believe that all of that happened the way you described it (and the actual story too for that matter). You have your facts a little off though that might make it a little more believable. Noah did not build the ark by himself, he had his entire family and their families (and possibly more that was not mentioned). The ark was built over a period of many many years they dont know how long exactly but they have narrowed it down to where it could have even been close to 100 years (max).

    That answers the questions of how how many people and how long.

    Yes people had boats back then but no one believed that there was going to be a flood caused by rain that lasted 40 days and 40 nights so first off no one probably had a boat big enough, and secondly they did not prepare and would not have had the provisions to survive even if they had a boat.

    That answers the boat question.

    The ark was built almost entirely out of wood. It could have easily decomposed by this time (thousands of years later). So even if we knew exactly where it was, it wouldnt look like a boat unless it had been preserved in some way.

    Now to the hardest question.

    There are a crap load of animals in the world and there is probably no way that Noah got all of them on the boat. In order to believe this part of the story you most definitly have to believe in the power of God. God could have led the animals to Noah (but i dont know how it happened, but if God is real then that could be true), and i'm not sure every species of animal had to be put on the boat. (fish, birds, and others that could have survived a flood. A flood that we do not know if it covered the entire earth really so animals could have been spared there as well but who knows).

    So the question of the animals is really the only thing that is far fetched (from an unbelievers point of view) about the story. I'm not sure how it all really went down, it is extremely possible that we dont have every single detail about the event. Just because the Bible does not tell us about other factors does not mean they were not there.
     
  4. #84 moose420, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2010
    You're right in the story he does have his family to help him build the ark, but they didn't have 100 years they had 7 days to build the ark before the God said the floods would start (atleast thats how i understand it). Then it rained for 40 days and the waters continued to rise for 150 days....i could only imagine the amount of food it would take to keep atleast 4 million animals alive for 190 days.

    Not to mention that they have Noah as 600 years old at that point, thats a hell of a project to take on for a 600 year old person ;)
     
  5. Ohh so they built it over a 100 years. Wow. Super human life. Amazing.
    The bible. aka = the book of magic and fairytails.
     

  6. Well I think the Bible is very unclear of how long it took him to build the ark, it definitly wasnt 7 days, it took years. Took this from a website "The Bible does not specifically say how long it took Noah to build the ark. When Noah is first mentioned in Genesis 5:32, he was 500 years old. When Noah entered the ark, he was 600 years old. The time it took to build the ark would depend on how much time had passed between Genesis 5:32 and the time that God commanded Noah to build the ark (Genesis 6:14-21). At the absolute most, it took 100 years."

    And if someone were telling me that there were millions of animal species on that boat I can understand why someone would not believe. I have no idea how many animals were on there, I know there were some, but I think it to be really far fetched that there were near that many animals. Like I said in that instance I would have to assume there are factors in the story that were not mentioned as to the survival of the other animal species. But it is all relative if you believe in God or not and the power of what he can do. He could have sustained the animals without as much food or soemthing like that, no one knows really, but if you believe in God it is possible.)

    But yea the story of Noah's ark is one of the most far fetched without knowing the details. And you know Noah was happy to get off that boat because the first thing he did was plant a vineyard, make wine, get drunk, and go to sleep lol.
     

  7. If you look at the number of man made, cancer causing, diseases that are in the world now that were simply not there before, not to mention what we eat today, plus they say the suns uv rays werent as strong back then, but who knows, knowing all of these things it definitly would have been possible to live much longer.

    But again we are looking at one then the other, why is it easier to believe that the earth is billions of years old (well the discovery channel did tell me that), than the fact that people could have lived up to six times longer than today?

    Its all what you choose to believe. And after studying different ways to believe I have made my choice, and it seems you have made yours. I just hope everyone puts effort into actually studying things before they go off of other peoples opinons.

    Thats another reason why we are so messed up in the way a lot of our country views weed. Do your research not only about marijuana but about the possible truths in life(which is arguably more important ;))
     
  8. And Geeze ive never seen so many God and Christian bashing people in my life (only referring to the bashing posts). I know that people CLAIMING to be Christians have done some of the most terrible things in history but today christians are also the biggest contributors to the betterment of the world in many forms (contriubtions, volunteering, etc., etc.). I can understand not believing but even if all Christians are crazy and believe in fairy tales, why would you despise a group that continue to do so many good and charitable things in the world.

    I think some of the people in PETA are a little out there but I dont hate them. But I know PETA has probably done more good than harm for the betterment of the world so there is no reason to hate.

    I know a lot of you hate because of the hypicritical nature of christianty. The Bible actually teaches against boasting in your own works. But true christian principles teaches that everyone fails, everyone sins, no sin is greater than another in Gods eyes. The difference between a Christian who fails, Someone who calls themselves a christian, and a non believer, is that a true christians actually desires to not fail, they may still fail, they ask for forgiveness and they actually desire and try to change/repent.

    I would not consider someone to be practicing true christianity if it were someone who goes to church, points out what other people do wrong, sins themselves, and doesnt actually want to turn away from there sins other than just hide it.

    A true christian actually has made a commitment to God to follow his ways and to love him to the BEST of his/her abilities, whether or not they fail, but it is a continuous battle not to fall into temptations and continue learning, but when you fall, you get back up and keep trying harder. One of the main qualities about God is that he will always forgive, he just requires actua effort from us.
     
  9. #89 Spikoli, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2010
    Judiasm was not the first religion on earth. that is an absurdity perpetuated by biblical "scholars". The oldest practiced religion on the planet is Zoroastrianism, or rather the oldest practiced codified religion. jesus borrows liberally from Zoroastrianism in his teachings, and because of his locale he most definatly was aware of the religion. But Zoroastrianism is a rejectionist religion from from an even older religion in the Tigris and Euphrates river valley. Sumerians were offering human sacrifices to UR before the Isrealites had figured out how to domesticate goats. the egyptians had a complex pantheon of gods in place at a time that was contemporary to the sumerians, well before the lives of Abraham and Isaac and all of those guys. if you go back even further we find archeological evidence of sun worship, and at about the same time (approx 100,000 BCE) we find animism, that is the worship of nature embodied in animal totems and spirits. there is your original religions on earth sun worship (which i totally understand) and nature worship (again, i get this one).

    Here is a good layout of the timeline of religion from our good friends at wiki
    Timeline of religion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Christianity is a snot nosed upstart compared to some of the truly OLD religions. hell there is evidence of "carefully prepared burials" which indicates an honoring of the dead (one of the basis for religion) as old as 220,000 years ago. compare that with the biblical myths that "took place" a mere 6000 years ago. it is a cultural vanity in the extreme to suggest that Judaism is the oldest religion in the world.

    i get the feeling that your understanding of scientific process is going to limit this discussion severely. You ask for evidences that we are still evolving. I got a couple for you right off the top of my head. one, pinky toes are getting smaller and smaller (due to the proliferation of shoes). two, human females are entering puberty earlier and earlier (due to high protein and high fat diets). three, the average height of people in japan is climbing (high protein, high fat again). humans are getting less and less hairy (clothes). This is evolution, the environment we live in causes our existence to change. Humans are evolving constantly. most of the changes are small, but over the years they add up. but consider the "technology" of being able to change our environments (houses, buildings, AC, central heating ETC), at a point relatively recent to our own existence we have figured out how to stabilize our personal environments; the cold doesn't kill us much any more, the animals don't kill us much any more, heat still kills us but less (in fact heat waves are the deadliest natural disasters we endure) this stabilization has slowed down(stabilized) some of the more "physical" evolutions, but it has allowed us to evolve in a more cognitive manner. Consider the changes in Philosophy, Art, Science, hell consider the changes in the very act of HOW we learn. all of these changes we made possible by the simple fact that we don't really have to worry about a saber tooth cat killing us:D, or a blizzard, or a famine, we can devote our attention and time to other pursuits besides saving our own skins.

    if we have a world wide technological dark age and we loose the ability to create shoes and clothes and houses and all of that you will see a rise in hairy, large footed humans, cause they would be the ones to survive the cold and run faster from predators. Evolution is not a PLAN of action for natural conditions it is a RESPONSE to natural conditions.


    and the flood thing. read the epic of gilgamesh and tell me what you think.....it was written a century or so before the old testament
     
  10. The average life expectancy back in the days of Jesus was about 30-40 years old and they say only 1 in 6 infants made it to middle adulthood. So i find it really hard to believe that certain people were able to live to 600 plus years old.

    They wouldn't know back then if people were dieing from cancers because they didn't even know what cancer was back then and they didn't have mri machines and other technology to detect if someone had cancer. People live much longer today because we can detect these things and treat them before it kills the person, back then they had no chance if they got cancer or some other life threatening illness. They didn't have operating rooms or chemo-therapy or anything else back then, people just died if they got deathly ill.
     

  11. actually the reason that life expectancy was 30-40 was directly the result of only one in six infants making it. infant mortality is the biggest factors used to determine life expectancy. the maximum age was about the same as it is now, and there are verifiable documents from the roman times that describe people living into their hundreds. 100 yes, 600, don't make me laugh.
     
  12. did you know that in order for there to be enough rain to cause a flood of those proportions, the entire atmosphere would be so saturated in water that you would literally drown from breathing?

    the story of noahs ark is complete and utter bullshit.
     
  13. Actually that is a good point about the infant mortality, didn't really think of that, but i'm sure that definately put a dent in the life expectancy number.

    But still like you said, 600??? haha

    Oh and then not only did people live to 600 and older according to the bible but one man was able to come back from the dead, now that must of been something else.
     
  14. did you know that in order for there to be enough rain to cause a flood of those proportions, the entire atmosphere would be so saturated in water that you would literally drown from breathing?

    Also, where did the water go? We know it didn't just go into space lmao.

    the story of noahs ark is complete and utter bullshit.
     
  15. No. I was raised christian though, so for years I did obviously.

    I really wish my parents hadn't raised me religiously. If they hadn't, I most likely would have been happier and had more fun. I spent way too many days worrying about sin and hell. I was scared senseless to do anything that may be considered sinful. It just made me miserable. Since my sister was also christian, and took things very seriously, she made me feel guilty about a lot of things and made me more miserable then I already was. I through videos games away because I thought they were evil and I would burn in hell forever if I played them.

    Thanks family.
     

  16. I do not believe that you and I will be able to see eye to eye on a lot of things mainly because of our own interpretations of when certain events happened and the complete uncertainty of it all. It all comes down to there is a whole lot that "scholors" claim and none of it can be proven, No one knows really, we only know what we hear and read and have to come up with conclusions based on that.

    You continue to state "facts" when it comes to the dating of something, but there are no facts to be stated. There is only what a group of people have come up with against what another group of people have come up with. How in the world can something be stated as fact such as the dating of when ancient writing occured.

    Zoroastrianism is said to be dated back over 200,000 years ago. But how? Because Wikipedia says so. Its all theory of "scholors." The proof that you are lacking to believe Christianity is just not there in believing otherwise either. Its a contradition to say you dont believe in christianity because there is no proof when there is no proof in anything else either. There was no dating system even when Genesis was written, it is all speculation and a best guess looking back as to the age and time period. If it is a cultural vanity to claim that the time period of the Abrahamic religions was the oldest then it is in the same way to claim any other as the oldest because its all estimated and NO ONE REALLY KNOWS.

    The difference between us believing what the oldest religion is the fact that of course I believe that God created the earth (no real proof) and when everything began. You belive because some scholors "belive" that a writing "could be" dated "as early as" a time is a basis for your belief (no real proof, just like mine).

    My understanding of the scientific process tells me that a simple shrinking of a toe (if that is actually backed by years of study of the size of pinky toes) does not change and entire species! It changes a very minor detail of the make up of that species (which varies all around the world due to conditions) but it does not change the entire species, if we did adapt then we would be small toed humans, we would not change to a different species! That is a complete faith based system just as much as christianity.

    I wish our adaptation would have realized that flying is much faster than walking, i'd love a pair of wings. Why were the birds so lucky? I'm sorry i'm getting rediculous now but if all species could evolve into something better, then what the heck is a worm still doing a worm? I mean come on that would just suck to be a worm and after billions of years of evolution all it could come up with is a worm? Again that is just a rediculous thought of mine.

    And again you say the epic of Gilgamesh(written as a literary poem and not for fact, not saying that you thought it was just saying) is "belived" to be written "as early as" and "could be as old as" a century before the Old Testament. A century is not a long time when it comes to estimating thousands of years ago, so to say that it was for sure written before the old testiment is short of a shot in the dark. I'm not saying that 100% it wasnt, but I'm saying that there is no proof that it was. Its all estimation and we cannot put all of our apples in a basket of estimation and not call it faith.

    Believe me I understand how hard it is to believe, It was very hard for me to get to the point that I believe today, but there is "something" that takes a hold of you when you get to a certain point in your christian faith. It isnt always there, I only feel it when I am seeking God the most, I dont so much when I'm not. I promise there is a personal proof and knowing when you experience it, but if you dont experience it then it goes back more to faith.
     

  17. I definitly see your point here. This is something I simply have no idea on. All I was saying is that it is possible.
     
  18. #98 The Botanist, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2010
    600? It's impossible. And i wouldn't believe that someone can just come to life. Especially when it comes from the bible. Not to offend any die-hard Christians here...

    Edit: It's not possible yet. But i'm positive we will have the technology within a century.
     

  19. I'm sorry you had that experience, but that is not what christianity is about. That is what a lot of america has turned "christianity" into, but dont let those misguided teachings deter you from looking for yourself now that you are at an age of accountability.
     
  20. #100 Spikoli, Aug 10, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 10, 2010
    according to strict christian orthodoxy there is still somebody alive from jesus' time. He told his followers that one of his disciples would live to see his second coming. check out the wandering jew myths. good stuff.

    and to stp not all archeological evidence is carbon dated. a lot of it is mathematical inference from events described in early writings, then cross correlated with carbon dating. and the accuracy of carbon dating is only suspect with recent events and the extremely old, as the dated object gets older it is more accurate to a point, then once the presence of carbon 14 is completely gone other forms of dating can take place, carbon 14 is not the only isotope that is used. and i never said that Zoroastrianism is 200,000 years old. but i did say that it is older than Christianity. still being practised today by the way.
     

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