Did Jesus Really Exist?

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by Liquidtruth, Sep 7, 2007.

  1. If you haven't got anything to add, then by all means... stay outta the thread!

    This forum will not appeal to nor do we want to be exposed to your "Team Player" religious mentality.
     
  2. But it does make a difference. You presented it as proof of Jesus' existence and we throughly debunked it as nothing more than a fabrication.

    I dunno, y'know, cause we're supposedly in God's image right? There are an awful lot of ugly human beings. Maybe God is kind of overweight, balding, with thick glasses..... maybe god is...

    [​IMG]

    Because so much is done in his name. I'm not really pressing for any evidence, I couldn't care less is some pinko pacifist did some magic tricks and got himself nailed to a piece of wood 2000 years ago.

    When I saw the thread though, it struck me as a very legitimate question. Where is the evidence of the existence of this key figure, which so many subscribe their entire world view to?

    What would be the repercussions if he was found to have never existed and to be nothing but a colourful pagan analogy.

    Anyways, that's the reasoning behind it, for me at least.

    No, it's just that little thing I like to call rational skepticism kicking in.

    Well for the sake of argument, let's say he did exist. So what?

    Good luck proving him to be anymore divine or legitimate than Moses or Muhammad or L Ron Hubbard or Claude Vorilhon.

    Well see, that's the thing about the burden of evidence; no matter how strong your conviction or your dogma, you still need proof.

    Ooops!
     



  3. Oh really? Well tell me how much can logically be applied to the concept of Religion? faith doesn't have to rely on empirical evidence or abide by our definition of logic. What don't you understand about that? Is the idea of God logical? immortality? karma?
    Why do you assume that everything in the universe has to abide by our definition of what is logical and what isn't? We are nothing but a young species on a planet that is a infant compared to others.
    If my arguments are so illogical, why haven't you been able to logically prove them wrong with ease?


    oh nowww Jesus exists huh? when you can apply him to your post? and why is it a real pain in the ass? because you're struggling to find the arguments to pull out of your ass to throw at me. Oh yes, I'm so illogical and making many mistakes in my rebuttal...if that was the case why are we still continuing? You've barley even commented on my sources and haven't provided anything to suggest my references are false or biased. Your argument solely rests on skepticism and I'm the illogical one?

    It's funny how people fall back on the logical fallacy argument when they have nothing else to conger up as a valid response. You have yet to find something against the unbiased historian references to Jesus, you just assume they are false due to what you have read in this thread, which is pathetic.


    You implied that there was by claiming you base your argument on logic and historical evidence or whatever. Like I've said you've failed to elaborate on the lack of evidence on Jesus, which is bullshit. And also to respond to the evidence I've posted..wonder why? and yes Liquidtruth did say that, you seem to get a lot of your arguments from claims and responses similar to his, like when he claimed I was using an ad hominem argument you started to too! They're may be more evidence that Julius existed but that could be just coincidence, fact is there's not a hell of a lot more evidence regarding historical figures around the time of Jesus but people don't criticize them because no one is skeptic about their existence due to no religious aspects.

    Here's an idea, why don't you stop reading wikipedia pages and stop relying on other sources long enough to actual read what you are posting and come up with an actual argument on your own bro. Especially when you have previously failed to accuse me of using an ad hominem when you were the one who was actually using one, lol. Do you even read the terms you attempt to apply to my arguments and throw in my face? evidently no, you're more concerned with appearing more intelligent than you actually are.


    You haven't?? can you read because the evidence I've posted doesn't cite the Bible, honestly how many times do I have to repeat myself. You claim the religious are guided by blind faith but it's evident you are blinded by mere skepticism...


    Yes, biblical references can be considered appeal to authority, but only by skeptics such as yourself. Anyway that's not irrelevant because I haven't cited any biblical references, where is your argument coming from?

    Appeal to authority huh? First my arguments were just an ad hominem now the opposite? Which is it? you're using so many logic terms you're losing grip on what exactly makes them logical.

    I took this right form your glorious God site:





    ohhh now it's just a appeal to the majority huh? who am i arguing you or wikipedia definitions? do you honestly believe you're appearing intelligent by using faulty and ill placed terms? we're not discussing mere philosophy here..we're debating religion which cannot be easily defined by logical terms.



    Who has implied that? Have I ever claimed that I or anyone had all of the answers? or that my religion was more knowledgeable or better than any other? No, do you read my post or just surf wikipedia in hopes of using a term against me in place of an argument?



    I agree 100% man, humanity overall is very ignorant.



    And that's your problem, you ignorantly assume that all Religious people think in the same way, which is not true at all. Everyone interprets things from different perspectives regardless of similar belief systems. I don't disregard scienctific study or analysis, and realize that evolution is pretty much all fact as far as we know. I believe that alien life is existent out there, and most likely more intelligent and possibly millions of years more civilized and developed than our race, yet I am also a Christian. You claim you're a critical thinker but if you were alive 200 yrs ago what seemed to be scientific fact would be a lot totally different today, see my point?


    And you know better than someone else our place and purpose in the universe and what defies reality?? Why are you struggling to form a solid rebuttal and relying on simple Internet sources then?


    Like I said, use the search button. If you're so intelligent you should be able to logically figure out how to use it :) ;)


    You have failed to see my point, which isn't surprising...you're too overwhelmed by mere skepticism.



    How exactly would one go about doing just that?



    Which is just a simple assumption, and only your opinion.


    Of coarse it's probable, that's not my argument dude.


    Throw whatever pretty maps you can find at me, they have no legitimacy whatsoever. Who the hell are you to say what I would believe in under different circumstances?


    How much logic can be applied to self belief? are you listening to yourself? belief doesn't have to abide by reasoning, they can be personal and based on internal experiences. wow great point. You really think people don't contemplate logic in their own beliefs? are you that ignorant? I hope not.


    Oh is that what is was? thanks I was really wondering. ;)



    lol, you guys love to claim that. Yep we're all controlled because we constantly blindly follow whatever the bible say every single day right? Christianity doesn't soley rest on what the Bible teaches, so exactly how much impact can it possibly have in control the masses?



    so you didn't even bother to read is what you're really saying, that's real surprising...you're are nothing but a skeptic.


    You didn't have to say you admitted it, it's obvious bro.



    That's obvious, and you're going to accomplish that with a biased documentary that can't even get all of its facts straight.



    No, you claim there is a lack of evidence because of your skepticism.


    Oh so you're quotes aren't an appeal to authority, but mine are right? you're amazing man. You're so concerned with the boundaries of logic you can't even form a valid opposing view.


    as usual you're assertions are wrong.



    How so?
    Humanity has personally fucked up this world, not God. Does God control us? no we have free will, we are to blame for our own actions as long as there is no interferance.


    I agree, but that doesn't disprove the idea of a God now does it.



    See your problem is not with a God in general, you refuse to believe in the imagery of God we as humans have created.


    No I put it in italics.


    by believe, I meant we are not certain. You misinterpreted, as usual.


    Who the fuck are you to say what I've lived up to? Again you ignorantly assume all people in a particular Religion think and follow the same. The Bible teaches the way things were back then...and Christianity doesn't rely solely on the Bible buddy, Like people, Religions experience an evolution as well.




    meh..another false claim that my references aren't legit with absolutely no proof :rolleyes:
    It's getting old bro, you're making yourself look more and more ridiculous with every post.



    What you just said in no way relates to my point, so I won't even bother to get into it.


    philosophical quackery huh? yep that explains it all doesn't it.


    Logic and reasoning aren't killing the church, you're killing yourself attempting to apply the two to the church and religion when they both do not have to abide by the two.



    That's not it, It's easy to pick apart this and that and show what is negative and wrong about the Bible when you're looking at it from a biased and negative perepective, and reading it not as it is intended to be.
     
  4. I can almost garunte he existed, but was just a regular person, who did good things, maybe similar to the pope or something, but over time something grew from it, maybe he was the Charles Manson type (sorry for those of you who find this connection horrible) who could just use words like magic, and had a huge following, but just used it to do good, not bad, and therefor a legacy was born, which evovled into religion for people who perhaps were missing one at the time.
     
  5. I haven't seen one link to a reputable source YET that PROVES the existence of Jesus as a person. Not one. So as far as I'm concerned, you guys need to start posting proof instead of your feelings and emotions and what you believe. Post hard proof. You can't. Every historian that's written of Christ has been shown to be an inaccurate historian (Josephus much? - just an example.)

    Jesus was seen by THOUSANDS (supposedly). Where are all the writings of this Jesus? No where other than the Bible and a few faulty historians. I'd think that there'd be writings of him found throughout Europe, Northern Africa, and Asia Minor if he did exist -- but there's not. Ever wonder why he's never mentioned as a historical figure in any of your history books? I bet it's got more to do with the fact that he didn't exist than it does with religious POV's...
     
  6. Just a thought. I was under the impression that Psalm 22 was the personal experience of the Psalm writer and his anguish at being tormented for his beliefs? It's not a prophecy of crucifixion.

    Psalm 22, 69:21
    <TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=601 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle colSpan=2>A Cry of Anguish and Song of Praise</TD></TR><TR><TD align=middle colSpan=2><TABLE width="50%"><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle>[SIZE=-1]To the chief Musician upon Ai'jeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.[/SIZE]</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    6 But I am a worm and not a man,
    scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
    7 All who see me mock me;
    they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
    8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
    let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
    9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
    you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
    10 On you was I cast from my birth,
    and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
    11 Be not far from me,
    for trouble is near,
    and there is none to help.
    12 Many bulls encompass me;
    strong bulls of Bashan surround me;
    13 they open wide their mouths at me,
    like a ravening and roaring lion.
    14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint;
    my heart is like wax;
    it is melted within my breast;
    15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
    and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
    you lay me in the dust of death.
    16 For dogs encompass me;
    a company of evildoers encircles me;
    they have pierced my hands and feet [2]-
    17 I can count all my bones-
    they stare and gloat over me;
    18 they divide my garments among them,
    and for my clothing they cast lots.


    19 But you, O Lord, do not be far off!
    O you my help, come quickly to my aid!
    20 Deliver my soul from the sword,
    my precious life from the power of the dog!
    21 Save me from the mouth of the lion!
    You have rescued [3] me from the horns of the wild oxen!

    Can anyone clear this up? LT/Cottons? And any idea why the relevant line above in bold is removed from the new american bible?

    MelT
     
  7. the war in iraq?
     
  8. and cannabis, every time you make one of those giant posts, you contradict yourself or your religion and it's actually hurting your case more than it's helping it out. i love the debates that happen in this forum, but if you keep digging your own grave, there'll be no one left to debate with.
     


  9. Prophecies regarding the crucifixion. He was prosecuted under the Roman courts (the romans being the dogs, i'm assuming), and the soldiers pierced his hands and feet. They also divided his clothing amongst themselves (I think before he was cruxified).

    It's worded differently in the KJV, though...


    David's feet and hands were never pierced, and his garments were never divided.
     
  10. Dogs = gentiles. :)

    If you follow the link in MelT's quote it brings you to the following... "22:16 Some Hebrew manuscripts, Septuagint, Vulgate, Syriac; most Hebrew manuscripts like a lion [they are at] my hands and feet."

    Though, Jesus was indeed talked about in the OT. Or, I should say, the Messiah was talked about in the OT. It is interesting that the Gospels were written after his death, it allowed them time to go through the OT and make sure the stories they were writing matched up with the prophecy exactly. :p

    No, I am not saying that is the reason it was written so long after his death, I am saying that is what they did, though. Paul most certainly never spoke much about Jesus.

    Here is an interesting article on Paul. When I was a Christian and gave two shits, I would tend to ignore anything Paul said because it stood in stark contrast to what Jesus was apparently saying. Paul would say some pretty outrageous crap. Anyway, on with the show.

    [web]http://www.wordwiz72.com/paul.html[/web]

    What does all this, in a nutshell, mean? It means you can only trust the Bible about as far as you could throw the moon, which last I checked, would not be very far at all.

    The following link will take you to a site that would disagree with the above one.

    http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_Paul.htm

    They provide very few examples of where their teachings line up. Paul said a lot more than that, so did Jesus (allegedly). Oh, and there is a prize for anyone who can list the logical fallacies in the second link. :)
     
  11. Paul never existed.
     
  12. Quite possibly. :p

    I am glad you are jumping on board Chevelle!


    ;)
     
  13. Wow...I didn't know these things. I'm beginning to lean again towards the fact that he didn't exist...Wow. Thanks man. Great post.
     

  14. well fuck, how can you prove anything then? prove harry carry existed. oh, well thats just a picture, thats pixels, not him, oh theres a quote from him? nope. video, fuck, more pixels. commonnnneee
     
  15. I won't go into the debate as such, just make a statement:

    No, Jesus did not exist. It is a fictional character.

    Provide evidence to the contrary, and I will get back to you.
     
  16. Personally, I dont think it matters all that much. If he did exist, he was nothing more than human.....just like the rest of us.
     
  17. No rep for ya' JesusC, need to spread some love around, but yeah. If there ever was a jesus, he'd be like us. Humble, not a warmonger, not the intolerant bitch the evangelicals make him out to be.
     
  18. Jesus, in scripture, isn't a warmonger or intolerant bitch, either. Funny how it's the evangelicals to make him out that way, huh?

    Remember the harlot who was about to be stoned. Jesus said "He who is without sin may cast the first stone"... Then he told her to go and sin no more, as opposed to killing her like Jewish Law said to...

    Which brings up an interesting point... Why did Jesus contradict the Jewish Law that was established by The Father in the OT?
     
  19. amen brother
     
  20. So it breaks down like this. As far as I've been able to find (A few minutes of searching on wiki and asking a few people who might know) there is no evidence of that jesus existed that were originated before his death. Instead most of the evidince comes from people speaking about him after his death. This actually makes sense. The only document that could exist prooving his existence would be a execution order(I have heard rumors that this has been found, but I have no links and am not willing to comit to its existence). There were no newspapers in his time, No cameras or cenus'. What do you want? A social security number? In his time he would have been a minor celeberity. Christianity was a small cult till 300 something AD when Constantine made it the state religion. Can there ever be more than secondary(emperical?) evidence? Probably not. We dont have proof of socrates or Shakespeare either though so really whats the point? The world agrees that Jesus was real and for all intents and purposes that defines what is and isn't reality.
     

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