This is a GREAT thread y'all. Maybe if we all put our heads together, this could turn into some cold hard facts. I forgot to quote the post, but buddy said that there are no hard facts here - its all heresay...lol. No its not. Photosynthesis and Respiration are hard facts, and u need leaves to accomplish this. Im no saint, and I prune like crazy if theres no way out. But the whole time Im doing this, I know its detrimental to the plant in the big scheme of thingz. I wuz going to suggest that somehow a controlled experiment could be conducted. If I have the resources - I'll do it. But Im really busy with work and the bug stuff right now. Its my belief that the outcome will be this: 2 plants - both female. Everything in their care - identical. One will be pruned the shit out of and the other left to grow au naturel. Nothing, no topping, fim, lst, etc. Im willing to stake my rep around here that the plant that has been pruned will have a greater yield - yes. The plant that has not been touched, will have a lower yield, but the THC content will be much higher. Freak
Freak, I love it when folks lay it on the line dude! I'll send you an invite for the ISPCAC.... LOL! Like I always say, "You won't know until you gro-bro"
I would still like the side by side comparison. Based on the basic principles of how a plant works defoliation would not help your yield. Fan leaves are the plants main source of energy, and use photons to create carbohydrates that are then converted into flowers. This reaction takes place in each cell of leaves of the plant, and to a lesser extent in the flowers, steams and other parts of the plant. By removing one healthy green leaf, you are removing millions of chloroplasts. Even if the leaf is removed and other lower leaves capture the photons that would have hit the missing leaf, you will still have the effect of the inverse square law, which won't effect outdoor growers, but for us indoor growers the difference between having your light source 2' from a leaf or 3' is huge in the amount of lost photons. This is much like saying that you car will drive faster if you remove the gas tank. I do have an open mind and was thinking of the other side, and how it could be possible for removing the fan leaves to be beneficial. What if there is more than enough foliage and the leaves on the plant are capable of producing way more carbohydrates then the plant is capable of utilizing or storing under optimal conditions. Then the fan leaves have to turn away from the light, curl or lower chloroplasts concentrations in leaves. Then by removing some leaves chloroplasts can stay at a concentration of optimal performance or CCOP (not sure if this exists) in the remaining leaves. This would be the equivalent of only putting enough gas in your tank to finish the race, so you don't have to carry the extra weight of the fuel your not going to use. Again, and as stated many times previously, only a side by side scientific study will convince me this is a good idea.
Hey Possuum. lol. I knew ud be interested in this. U kinda partly did it with your fantastic last grow, and I know it turned out great - beautiful budz, nice smoke, a happy monkey lol. But whats your take on this ??? I forgot the reason that u pruned like hell man. I miss waking up to your educational posts now . Freak
Morning Freakbro! Oh gawd how I love these "to trim or not to trim" debates. Sometimes they get boring but it's always fun to readdress it anyway. And for the record, I trim bruddah and I will continue to trim, prune, stress, tie down, tie back, and bend into a pretzel shape if I have to in order to maximize the photosynthesis processes. Whew boy, here we go...... It's simple yet it's complicated. Anecdotal evidence (simple) clearly supports that trimming and pruning is not detrimental to cannabis plant health and plant growth. What is never discussed in these “to trim or not to trim†discussions (and there are so, so many), is the light saturation point of the canopy and the quality of the light as expressed in PAR which is the only useable form of the light for photosynthesis (complicated). Luminosity, i.e. ‘lumens' don't mean squat really in the indoor grow and taken by themselves will not tell us anything about the PAR quality of the light. i.e. A 400W incandescent bulb does not have enough PAR to be used as a grow light! We know this right? Manufacturers of HID don't measure PAR of a HID ‘grow light' and until the appearance of LED lighting on the grow scene PAR has been rarely discussed in the same sentence as lumens. As such people use lumens as the selection criteria when selecting a grow bulb; i.e. more lumens must mean “betterâ€. I don't want to get into the weeds by debating lumens vs. PAR but the laws of science are well established in this arena. It is up to us to understand the science laws and use them to our best advantage when cultivating. We're not allowed to write new laws of science unless we can prove them! PAR, within the context of ‘Light' factored in with the other Five of The Big Six requirements for growing a plant of any species is THE parameter to examine for photosynthesis and NOT the number and size of the leaves on the plant! Light quality, light reflection, light absorption, light distance, PAR, etc are what impact photosynthesis more than anything else within the Light component of growing. If one wants to debate "to trim or not to trim" then I think they really need to understand the physical properties of light, how light is reflected within a plant canopy, and most important PAR! I posted two pictures borrowed from the journals of two growers here in The City (a couple of pages back). One grower uses aggressive trimming and pruning the other lets his plants grow wild with no trimming or pruning. Just look at the pictures and draw your own conclusion! Which would you rather have growing in your small footprint grow space? If we take the “to trim or not to trim†discussion outdoors then I am more inclined to vote to leave the plant alone and let it grow wild and by its own design. But even outdoor grown cannabis has a light saturation point (all plants have this), PAR is still THE single consideration to be given to light efficacy for growing. If trimming and pruning enhances this parameter then by all means just do it! The federal laws are what keep science from our cultures grasp. So, we have to investigate other plant life to get a clue how to grow MJ and we have to borrow from one another's experiences so we can get it right for ourselves. I really chuckle and shake my head at this "trim debate". It's like witnessing a UN peace debate and trying to determine who threw the first rock! LOL! It's really not a big deal and nothing to espouse hatred about. Just try it for onesself. We're not growing corn or tomatoes or squash or beans. We're growing cannabis, hemp, ganja. Its needs are similar but different. It's simple yet it's complicated. PAR, light saturation point, canopy management, trimming, pruning, are the management tools we have to work with to increase both quality and yield in regards to the Light component of the grow. And isn't that what we are trying to accomplish, the proverbial 1gm per watt grow? That's our yardstick right? If one prefers to grow fifteen one gram buds versus growing one fifteen gram bud, then who really cares in the end? But if you want to know the nuances you have to get into it and understand the science behind what works and how it works. Unfortunately, it hurts sometimes but science is what it is. There are no winners in this trim debate. It's all about short cycle, indoor growing, yield, and harvest and whatever it takes to get there, Peace be with us! That's all we're trying to do right? Just grow some medicine or some smoke? No hate. Love! Live, Love, Laugh! What else is better in life than that? Ya'll Cheerio and Ya'll Peace! It's all good brothers and sisters! Thank you OP for bringing this hotly contested canopy management practice to the forefront of discussion... once again Now go forth and trim like a mofo and both you and your plant will be happy(ier).
good stuff as always..grobro...i hack at em too...it all comes down to theres more than 1 way ta grow good weed..theres so many factors..thats why i hate hard and fast rules..i always run side by sides..this time to top...vs..lst..using barneys farm lsd..i do it myself and i bellieveits about maxin' out your grow space to the best of your ability...resources....set up and grow area..ya cant just shove all grows into 1 handy box..why dont people understand...freakbro knows this...a chef that has the best of everything and unlimited product to work with and makes bland food is way behind the chef that has to scrap and toil and think to come up with food that explodes like fireworks in your mouth...but give them both the same resources...i know who my moneys on...same with growin..but theres such compitition here at gcwhats with that...will never get it...or post a grow journal...i wanna grow...not argue everything i do...just my deuce......now i know freak grow killa and i know p38 grows kjilla and they each do different things so the conclusion is........???peace deacon
So I went downstairs to the room last nite, which wuz supposed to be just a quick goodnite look. I have 3 girls that are same strain, same age and all that shit. I ended up spending an hour and a half down there, and when I wuz done, One of those girls didnt look the same as the others . I dont know what possessed me to do it, but I did. I just need a good camera now. Freak
sorry if this is off topic but do you have pictures of the Fim Technique after it is done and after the results occur due to the fiming...i cannot find any pictures of after or see someone sucessfully fim a plant so i am curious to see how this looks also i trim leaves during flowering
I'm LMAO dude! I've been there before. LOL! The devil made ya do it man!! LOL! It'll all be good. You'll see. Can't wait for your objective feedback!
May I present, DierWolf and his wonderful tutorial..... http://forum.grasscity.com/plant-training/122559-how-fimming-topping-made-easy.html One of the best you'll ever run across!
Hi guys! I'd like to jump in here as a proponent for the art of defoliation and even heavier forms of pruning. It's pretty apparent how divisive this topic can be, as so many aspects of growing are (eg: 24/0 vs. 18/6, hydro vs. soil, organic vs. chem etc.) and while I am in favor of this practice I've also learned that it's important to keep an open mind and pliable perspective. There seems to be as many successful techniques and methods of growing as there are people who grow, and so who am I to tell someone their way is wrong (unless they're really wrong of course ) and that my way is right? Generally topics like this aren't so black and white anyways so it's tough to make blanket statements like defoliation = bigger yields or visa versa. Example: I practice and am in favor of heavy defoliation with my grows, but would I recommend defoliation to someone with a 12" tall flowering plant growing under 3 CFL bulbs? Absolutely not. This scenario can be infinitely duplicated with all the endlessly unique and individual growing environments. Would I recommend defoliation in a 400W SCROG grow in a 2'X2' box? Yes. How about a 3000W large room SOG? Probably not. What I'd like to try and do is illustrate my most recent experience with pruning and defoliation and give some of the reasoning behind my point of view. I prune my plants throughout the entire grow, sometimes it's a leaf set here and there and other times it's a very heavy pruning, branches and all. My decisions to prune are most often dictated by my creative vision, which leads back to my belief that pruning can be more of an art form. Based on previous growing experiences I have a clear vision of how the plants will respond to the pruning and how they should look weeks down the road. Trimming should never be done haphazardly or without much foresight. Below is an image from one of my pruning sessions (a two plant grow under a 400w hps in a 2' X 3' closet.) This was not the most that was pruned at one time from this grow, and there were a few others of roughly this size. Notice I pruned both leaves and complete branches: and this is what the 2 plants look like right after the trimming, you wouldn't have noticed any change if I had taken a before shot : However if you take a look at the area which I have indicated with the circle, I'd like to point out that at one point this particular area was completely covered and shaded by the large fan leaves of the taller surrounding tops, which I decided to remove: Here's another shot of this area from a different angle a little bit later in developement. Notice the taller tops looming over the smaller ones. Had I never removed the large fan leaves, they would not have received any direct light at all, greatly reducing their eventual size and quality. Without direct light the trichomes and terpenes don't develop or ripen as nice. The last two shots illustrate that a heavily pruned/defoliated plant will in fact develop vigorous and substantial bud formations. I would actually take it 1 step further and assert that had I not employed the pruning techniques I did, the resulting harvest would not have been the quantity or quality that it was. Even though I put up an argument for defoliating, I would not tell anyone that they'd be better off doing it because it really isn't going to be appropriate for every circumstance. All I can do is put my experience and my results out there for anyone to take what they want from it. I know for a fact that there are some very well respected growers, who I personally have a great deal of respect for, who would tell me that I would be better off not not doing what I do, and I wouldn't fight them over it or tell them they're wrong. This really is one of those, to each his own scenarios. It would be the same argument as someone telling me I would have done better going hydro... maybe, maybe not... this is how I do it though and I think the results speak for themselves.
Fantastic post smoove. + rep (as if u need it lol). Y'all have effectively proven the defoliation with weed. As a biologist, it just sounds sacreligious to me, but I have an open mind, and I am going to try this. I have decided Im gonna go downstairs again tonite and give my other 2 ladies a coif, as Possuum would put it lol. If all your ears are ringing later tonite, it just me, quietly swearing and thinkin of y'all.... Freak
So here's some before and after pictures for you guys to enjoy. I'll post pictures every 24 hours so you can see the development. This was my last major defoliation before flowering in probably 10 to 14 days. I'll pick leaves here and there but I'm done stripping them (probably). The LST'd plant seems to need less defoliation at the moment, with the scrogged plant feeling like I could pull leaves off all day. The fimmed plant has side branches that are about to surpass the main stalk so I think I'll fimm those too in a few days as I should still have a good week after that to recover. Pictures 1 and 2 are before and after. Pic 3 is a close up macro of the LST'd plant's center. Pic 4 is through the middle square of the scrog plant looking down at the center. Pic 5 is the main growth from the scrogged plant. Pic 6 gives you an idea of how many leaves were removed from all three plants today.
I am willing to experiment with this of a few of my upcoming plants to see how they yield vs the other plants around them? I'm doing 21 plants each in a 5 gallon bucket of Perlite, drip to waste under 1000w on a mover. OP, send me what you would want as far as how I do the experiment and I will post them here weekly.
You know what dude, I sincerely apologize and retract what I said about you earlier I was the one having a bad day and in need of a joint myself(won't have anything till halloween) I agree that people should be willing to try new things(to a extent) and I have a 4ft tall white widow and 3 foot afghan that are just now 2 weeks into flowering and will give this defoliating thing a try. Are you guys saying to pluck all the fan leaves or just the ones obscuring bud sites? Peace
Smoove, there are more than a few adjectives I could use to express how I feel when I look at what it is you do. If I may, this one sums it up – Fuck! Ladies and gentlemen let’s give Smoove a round of applause . (He is a gro-bro, super-hero this foiking guy!) 2lsc, you get many props also bro! I love what you're doing with your LST! Awesomeness! Seeing these bros responses prompts me to jump back in with a rather long post. Yawn! But if you want to learn something, read on. This whole discussion is not a simple matter. There are some seriously complicated processes occuring with plant growth and since "us types" have to figure it out ourselves we would be well suited to understand the photosynthesis process and how it relates to an annual plants growth characteristics. It ain't majik that's for sure. I guess I got off into the weeds discussing PAR light previously but understanding PAR light is an absolute when discussing the quality and quantity of “Light” (~400nm – ~700nm wave length). I think most folks already get that but it’s well worth reinforcing. What is really important in this discussion is the relationship between photosynthesis efficiency and the trimming and pruning of “green matter” (lets just call leaf and branches “green matter”). Unless otherwise noted below when I reference “light” I am referencing PAR light. But before we get into it I think we should consider what goals are we are trying to achieve by leaf trimming and pruning? It’s not an exercise we practice for enjoyment or because some anonymous nom-de-guerre tells us we should. It should be viewed as a means to manage the canopy with the minimum goal being to increase light penetration and air circulation around flowering sites. We can go further and have the goal of increasing the number of flowering sites, managing the shape and height of the canopy, and so on. But at minimum our goal should be to increase light penetration and air circulation around the flowering sites. So let’s discuss this just a bit. The green matter is what contains the cellular structure that provides the means through which a plant can grow (The root structure is for another discussion). Expressed mathematically the equation for photosynthesis is: 6CO2 + 6H2O + Light Energy (PAR) = C6H12O6 +6O2 (glucose + oxygen). Assuming that H2O is not a limiting factor under normal conditions the TWO limiting factors of photosynthesis are PAR light and CO2. The light saturation point is that point at which adding more PAR light will not increase photosynthesis due to the other limiting factor – CO2. Only if additional CO2 is added will photosynthesis increase again to a new light saturation point at which adding more CO2 is necessary to increase photosynthesis once again. This works well up to the 1200 – 1500 ppm of CO2 maximum limit at which point both light and CO2 are saturated. Adding any more of either will not increase photosynthesis. So what about the leaf? There are many, many things to talk about with the leaf as it is not only the store for plant energy but it is also where the photosynthetic processes takes place. Also, as part of the major function of their role leaves are in competition with one another for nutrients. Aha! So, if we remove the leaf we are removing the energy store of nutrients and the photosynthesis engine! True, but you are also removing the competition for nutrients! But at what point of green matter removal does negative effect occur? That my friends is a real quandary to try to figure out without some real sophisticated laboratory equipment and scientists and academics have been trying to agree on this for at least 100 years. That is why in this case (our hobby and passion) a picture is worth a thousand words. Smoove and 2lsc have more than adequately demonstrated this. Now let’s discuss a bit about the leaf area index (LAI), the physical properties of light, the curvature of the leaf, light reflection, and so on, as they impact the effort to increase light penetration and air circulation around flowering sites, and I will bring my post to a close for now. If your plant is going to capture the entire available PAR to use in photosynthesis then the leaf canopy must be: arranged well, have an adequate LAI, and be in position to capture the light. Leaves that are shaded or severely stressed in opposition to the perpendicular source of the light will NOT capture the PAR due to light reflection along the curvature of the leaf. As such, those specific leaves which are not capturing light are not useful to photosynthesis and can be removed without negative effect to plant health or growth! Light being comprised of photons travels in a straight line. The most effective and efficient use of light is when it strikes the leaf area perpendicular to the light source (i.e. straight down). Any curvature of the leaf will reflect the light causing it to angle off in another direction. Any of the light that is captured along the curvature will most certainly be a subset of that light which is available when it strikes the leaf perpendicular (straight down) from the light source. This is physics and a huge part of the physical characteristics of light. So, if the leaf is on the plant and the leaf is not capturing light the leaf is not performing photosynthesis. Period! This is just merely a fact and I didn't arrive at that conclusion on my own. It's been well stated academically many, many times over. I could go on a bit more but I don’t want to lose your interest. But let’s just consider one more thing. When we cultivate cannabis indoors we are taking the role of controlling the photoperiod of this annual plant. During vegetative growth the plant is taking up nutrients, performing photosynthesis, producing ATP, and growing the canopy to support its next genetic phase, flowering and seed production. During the vegetative stage the plant is busy building green matter and storing nutrients to translocate to the flowering site once the photoperiod changes. It is during this reproductive stage that vegetative growth all but stops and photosynthesis concentrates on producing the flower. This is the genetic design of the annual plant and at this stage what we are most interested in – BudZ! So the best one can do to achieve maximum photosynthesis efficiency is to manage the canopy in such a manner to ensure the highest LAI exposed to the PAR light to capture as much light as possible. Anything less than this is not efficient in an already very inefficient process (photosynthesis is VERY inefficient as a process using only 1% - 4% of PAR for photosynthesis.). Removing green matter artfully and selectively will improve the health and productivity of the plant. You see it here in the pictures. Man, what a great thread. Thanks Smoove and 2lsc for sharing your pictures and your methods! You dudes rock the house! People, DO try this at home! Cheerio 'ol beans!
Right on grobro - as usual lol !!! ^^^ Heres another can o worms to consider: Am I right in thinking that a 24/7 photoperiod in concert with the defoliation process, would be adviseable ??? Here we go again lol... Freak
Yes and here's why. During the vegetative growth stage of the plant, in our case 30 - 60 days, the plant it hyper-busy with photosynthesis. It is developing a canopy, growing a root system, developing branches, etc., and with cannabis, developing the apical bud sites which will turn into "flowers". During the vegetative stage canopy management, (pruning, trimming, training) are quite effective for improving light penetration and air circulation. I'd guess that anyone growing indoors under artificial light would want to keep the canopy to 3' or less. I like 2' - 2.5' and that's what I try to achieve. That said, the rules of light and photosynthesis still apply. If the light is not striking a leaf no photosynthesis is occuring. Extrapolate this on out in the spirit of quality of light (angle, distance from source, PAR value, etc), and if a leaf or a branch doesn't fit the requirement for quality and you can not otherwise correct the problem, cut it off! During the vegetative stage it is highly advisable to selectively prune and trim (and bend and tie). Not only are you training and managing the canopy for height you are also increasing light penetration and air circulation around the remaining canopy, a.k.a CO2. You are managing the canopy growth for optimum LAI to use the available light you are working with, maximizing the light penetration (distance and angle), and improving air circulation (CO2). With PAR light the inverse square law still apllies and all of that. Effective use of PAR is extrememly important all the way through the life cycle. Your minimum goal should be to improve light penetration and improve air circulation. So, yep! LOL!
I chopped a ton of leaves of my 2 plant scrog. Took everything off the bottom as well. I can only post pics in one place apparently, so if you wanna see em check out my grow in my sig. I'm about 4 weeks or so from the chop, maybe 5.