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Definitive Tincture Method

Discussion in 'Medical Marijuana Usage and Applications' started by JustJoe, Mar 14, 2009.

  1. Here's the thing, and I do think your cause is very noble, but there's not going to be one definitive method of dosing with cannabis. EVERYTHING is going to be trial and error for you because each person's body chemistry reacts to the psycho-active compounds differently.
  2. We can work on the dosing, once I figure out the best delivery and extraction method. I just need to make sure I have somewhat of a plan and it's at least strong enough to do the job, then I can dilute if needed and only if the results are equal or greater than smoke.

    This is only a trial anyway, if it's something in the smoke that can't be extracted in a tincture then we go back to smoke for now. The goal here is not to get stoned but to use the vaso-constrictors that may be present. Something works, we just don't know what it is yet. The properties in MJ are not showing signs of pain relief because the pain is so intense. Short of morphine there are little pain killers that help with these so I have to attribute something in the smoke or the herb for the relief.

    Concurrently, I am looking at Melatonin and magnesium levels as another possible solutions today. I have also read some on Ergot and at this point considering many alternatives to pot. Pot works for now, and until we find other abortive/preventives that actually work pot will be our soultion. Not because of the high, but because it kills these headaches.

    If we find the Melatonin and Magnesium do the job, we won't need MJ tinctures or pot anyway. The pot smoking and the tinctures are simply an interium solution until we can sort out other methods. He needs something that works for now and as of today it's MJ.

    My son does not like the way pot makes him feel, but he has stated, better baked than be in this pain. I agree totally of course and he has my support to do whatever he needs to do while we hunt for alternatives. Another name for these are Sucide headaches, they didn't come by that name by accident. I know those thoughts went through my mind at times when I had them and he has stated a similar thought pattern. Time is of the essence for obvious reasons.

    What the final soultion may be is still TBD, so I am leaving few stones unturned and that includes MJ tintctures. It's another tool to try until and if we can find a safer and more legal solution.

    When we find something that works, you won't hear anymore from us on this site. Neither of us are heavy recreational drug users and the sole reason for being here is medical. We never pass justment on anyone that does not effect our inner circle, What lifesytles people choose is their own business and none of ours.

    I'm here to fix a medical problem and nothing more.
  3. #23 noonecares, Mar 15, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 15, 2009
    Which state do you live in?

    I know you mentioned it's illegal and not decriminalized, but I'm just wondering.

    I could imagine the peace of mind you'd get if you were able to utilize dispensaries in California for pre-baked edibles and safe, regulated access to cannabis. I'd consider that a long-term solution you could plan for in the next 1-2 years if you aren't able to alleviate the problem otherwise.
  4. Cost of living in California is unreal compared to many other states. :(
  5. I live in Texas, not exactly an open minded group of politicians in spite of the fact 75% of Texans support Medical Marijuana.
  6. At least we've got Ron Paul. :)
  7. ... and George Bush :(

    Well after all this and that, I'm finally going to get to work this week on the tincture trials. I've read until I'm snow blind and now armed with enough information I think to take a stab at it.

    I'm going to run a test on glycerin using something like Rosemary before I make a final decision on media. One big question is viscosity, so I plan to use cheesecloth inside a potato ricer to attempt the straining segment. The Ricer may also act somewhat as an herb press.

    I plan to use my own modified crock pot method for this test extraction. After drying for 25 min. at 175* in the oven followed by grinding the herb in a coffee grinder I then will place herb inside a Mason jar, cover the herb with glycerin + 10% and screw on the mason jar lid. Then place the jar in a water/oil bath deep enough to cover the glycerin inside the crock pot, cover with crock pot with it's lid and cook at 220* for 2 hours. Once cooled, place the cheesecloth at the bottom of the Ricer. pour from the Mason jar, fold over another layer of cheese cloth covering the herb then press the glycerin goo through the ricer. This should give me a baseline and a few lessons learned when complete.

    What will happen? Who knows...I want to test a few things, will the sealed Mason jar hold up to the heat? Will the glycerin expand and break the jar? Can I strain the cooled goo through the cheesecloth effectively?

    If I have no failure points in my test, then I'll duplicate the methodology with the exception of herb selection, adding some orange zest and increase cooking time to 36 hours.

    This method came from many posts and different methods I have read. It's a blend of the olive oil cooking in the water bath method, the crock pot method and the glycerin boiling in the oven method. It should be a fairly low level effort to achieve and uses standard items found in most kitchens and one that does not involve heating alcohol to a dangerous flash point or waiting months. If this actually works, it should be a fairly potent mixture with an ultra high absorption rate and a fast delivery rate. A few drops under the tongue should be all it takes, if it works that is. The first of my tests starts today.
  8. I found some science about boiling points. This corresponds well to that glycerin tincture found on another site suggesting 311*. This does fly in the face of decarbonizing at 325* though. Seems like decarbing under 300* makes the most sense.

    Phytocannabinoids, their boiling points, and properties

    Δ-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
    Boiling point: 157*C / 314.6 degree Fahrenheit
    Properties: Euphoriant, Analgesic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antiemetic

    cannabidiol (CBD)
    Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
    Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

    Cannabinol (CBN)
    Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
    Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

    cannabichromene (CBC)
    Boiling point: 220*C / 428 degree Fahrenheit
    Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

    cannabigerol (CBG)
    Boiling point: MP52
    Properties: Antiinflammatory, Antibiotic, Antifungal

    Δ-8-tetrahydrocannabinol (Δ-8-THC)
    Boiling point: 175-178*C / 347-352.4 degree Fahrenheit
    Properties: Resembles Δ-9-THC, Less psychoactive, More stable Antiemetic

    tetrahydrocannabivarin (THCV)
    Boiling point: < 220*C / <428 degree Fahrenheit
    Properties: Analgesic, Euphoriant
  9. Hey, I just wanted to praise you for keeping your sons health at the highest interest. I have relatively no experience in making tinctures, but you have arrived at the right herb to ease headaches. I am still recovering from a very bad accident, and I am forced to use my medical marijuana in secrecy (still under the parents' roof). They just didn't understand that the Benzo's I was getting for my PTSD were too addictive and the Hydrocodone I was getting for my back pain caused too much nausea. It is very hard for a parent to arrive at Marijuana being the best solution, but I am glad to see you understand the benefits.
  10. Thanks for that, I have a great son and he's never been a substance abuser to any great degree. Some parents say they know but in my case I would really know. We lost his mother when he was young and so I have been both mother and father for the past 13 years. We talk on the phone at least 3 times a day, always have chat open, we text all day. We are very very close.

    Personally, I'm an x hippie. I lived in Berkley in 1969-1972. I'm no stranger to pot or the counter culture. While I have left that lifestyle far behind, being a parent changes what you want for your child. I expected drug experimentation in his youth and he has done that and to the extent he does not like the way drugs makes him feel. He likes to drink with his friends and have a good time, but past that I have every reason to believe he is completly drug free.

    Desperate times often demand drastic measures. As a former Cluster Headache sufferer myself, it's more than simply being empathic. While as stated I could never encourage recreational drug use for him, nor does he condone this action either, when faced with no other alternatives and knowing what I know about my son and the pain associated with this affliction, I have encouraged him to stop the pain by whatever means necessary until we can find alternate solutions. Both he and I sincerely hope, using MJ as an abortive is an intereim soultion.

    I have no quandary about using pot for medician purposes or any guilt related to this. My son has a problem and as a Dad, I need to find a solution and loose all the ethical, moral and legal hangups behind.

    This s my point of reference and my misson here.
  11. You could probably find someone somewhere that would claim Pot cures the drought in Darfur or will bring Houdini back from the dead. We need to be careful when using MJ as an alternative medicine and only when it is backed up by real data from the science communty and not just proponants for getting stoned. IME, it's not really a fine line here, either there are chemical properties in MJ that show signs of relief or not. Smoking pot won't grow a full head of hair back inspite of what some balding stoners might want to believe.

    If we seperate fact from fiction, medical marijuna may be more accepted by the masses sooner. The stigma and myths are what's holding it back IMO, that and the profiteers trying to find an angle for maximizing profits. This combined with the old school politicans that saw the movie Reefer Madness and actully believe it. :)

    I got some cooking to do.
  12. #32 JustJoe, Mar 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2009
    Some temp results.

    Glycerin does not seem to carry heat well. I have a few thermometers so I know my temps are pretty accurate.

    I placed a pyrex measuring cup with 1/2 oz of oregano and oz of glycerin. I placed this in a pan of water at 210* (boiling). and left for an hour then measured the glycerin temp. It was 185*. So at 185 there's no threat of vaporing the canna's. If the drop is proportional to the crockpot at 175. This would mean an approximate cooking temp for the goo at roughtly 150* inside the crock pot. If that is actully hot enough to do any good for a short 24 hours run, who knows. Boiling pont of glycern is 290* I think so I'm a long way off from that mark.

    What this means to me, if that if 311* is the mark I need to hit for the goo, then if I oven baked it, the temp in the oven should be closer to 350.00.

    I'm going to do an oven test next and see what the oven temp needs to be in order hit 280-290 at the goo. I'll try 350 first and report back.
  13. #33 JustJoe, Mar 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2009
    That didn't take long at 250* the glycerin started smoking and the viscosity broke down to more like water. So my guess now is 175-225 range at the goo or 300-325 oven temp.

    I'm trying 2 oz of just glycerin only this time to determine it's failing point. Oven is a 325. I want to keep the gly under the point it changes chemical composition but as high as possible for the extraction.

    You might be reading this and wondering if I saw any greenish glycerin from this test? Uh yeah...like dark olive oil from some old dried up oregano that has been open and in the back of my pantry for god knows how long. The extraction worked in the fact I made A green sweet substance , NO doubt in that fact. I got green glycerin from clear glycerin.

    Ok, 325 oven is too hot. When it hit 210* it changed the viscosity. 300* at the oven might be the magic number or 175* at the goo. What I can't be sure of is if the viscosity change is changing the extraction properties, I don't want to take that chance so 175 in my number to err on the side of caution.
  14. #34 septumus, Mar 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2009
    Power to the Texans :)

    You might be interested to know that there is a bill right now (HB164) that if it can make it through the system would allow MMJ patients to get out of police charges if caught and they have a written suggestion from their doctor. Since this is obviously an important cause to you, it might be something you want to follow and/or write to your representatives about.
  15. #35 JustJoe, Mar 17, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2009
    I did see that along with citations. It's a step forward for sure. In the mean time...

    The real soup is baking.

    Baked bud 5 mins at 300* to dry and carbonize
    Ground up in coffee grinder
    Covered Bud in glycerin with some orange zest
    Baking at 300* in oven 12-18 hours. The soup temperature is 250*

    I'll know more tomorrow.

    12 hours have passed.
    I placed a small piece of cheesecloth in the bottom of the ricer, poured the liquid through while hot, and pressed. I came up with some very very dark brown tincture.

    I think one of the keys for glycerin tinctures is straining while hot. The glycerin is not as thick as when it's at room temperature. Straining was not the problem I thought it might be.

    Dosing is next. Until I get the dosing amounts locked in, I won't give it to my son.

    Ok, dosing test, first off it does not taste "that" bad. It smells bad but taste is tolerable. I placed one drop under my tongue and set the timer for 5 minutes. At 5 mins I had a bit of a head high, my anxiety level rose, plus a bit of an elevation of heart rate and I knocked over a cup of coffee. At 7 minutes I think I reached the full effect.

    This stuff is strong alright. I plan to reduce the strength by adding glycerin to double the cooked amount, then retest. I may have to reduced strength further by 300%. One thing is clear to me, this method does work.

    Let me say this too. This was some old scrub brick weed that we came by for free not high guilty buds at all.

    We started the melatonin and the magnesium treatment yesterday. My son reported a headache this morning but the time was later than usual. He usually wakes with them before 3:00 AM. He reported an attack at 7:00. Melatonin is said to effect the biological clock, if this had anything to do with pushing off his attack time, it's TBD. We will continue the Mel and Mag treatments and hopefully this tincture will only be needed in the most extreme of cases.

    Dispensing: Glycerin is thick when cooled. It cannot be poured easily, after a few tests I found the best way is to use a flavor injector, the kind you inject seasonings into meat, it's a large syringe with a needle, but the only way to get the glycerin into the injector syringe is to remove the needle. Once in the injector you can move it to a dispensing or storage bottle.

    I think this wraps up my thread. Thanks to this site and others, I've completed my goal. Once I have the dosing safely calculated I will deliver to my son. When he has the opportunity to test it's effectiveness, I will report back in hopes this may help other cluster headache sufferers.

    I want to say thank you for all the good people on this board who have supported me. Without your help, this would not have been possible. While it's still untested as an abortive, it gives hope when there was little and that is always better than none.


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