I believe "rollie pollies" that you are referring to are actually called pill bugs, which isn't what these are, that I'm sure of. Pill Bugs: AKA Rollie Pollies Armadillidiidae - Wikipedia I will try to get a better picture without the microscope
You are so right. I was just thinking white grubs, RP's sure aren't long and thin, but short and fat. I can see the pic now, I don't recognize that head. cheers os
A couple of quick thoughts. Another real worry with using horse manure is persistant herbicides that was really brought out by a former member SteveBomb a few years back and didn't show up till the VC was actually used in his garden. He collected composted manure from his fathers horses/pasture and used this as bedding. The worms loved it and thrived, but he got deformed growth in both his veggie garden & container plants soon after using the VC. Unknown to him, his father had used a weed & feed on a particular pasture a year or 2 previous. It had been composted for a couple of years then run through the bins with zero ill effects on the worms. It wasn't till he posted pics of deformed tomato plants and asked for help that everything started to come out (It's still somewhere in the veggie garden sticky). The biggest shocker to me was A) The length of time (several years), that the herbicide persisted after going through the horse, being well composted, going through the worms before being used and B) The zero ill effects that it had on the worms. You would think they would be the 'canary in the coal mine', but that proved not to be the case at all. *I* just flat avoid any collected manures and have even cut way back on my fav Black Kow bagged manure. That's from dairy cows where herbicides are pretty much proscribed from use. It's just too easy to grow comfrey and know exactly what has or hasn't been applied to your own soil to take any chances with anything you aren't 100% sure of. Again, that's just me. Wet
@Sinescent the beauty of raising worms is that there are so many ways to do it. It could be as simple as adding a handful of worms to your manure pile and walking away. Or as complicated as you'd like to make it. For now I wouldn't do much with the manure until you know it's ok. Fill a 5 gallon bucket halfway up and add some worms to it and cover w mulch. In a couple months (or when it's ready) make a small batch of soil with it and plant potatoes or tomatoes (both are very sensitive to pesticide damage) and see how they grow. If you start adding it all Willy nilly everywhere you could contaminate everything which equals alot of labor and time for nothing. Keep in mind the manure pile will be reduced to about 1/4 of it's size by the time the worms are done. Even after you run a bioassay and determine the manure is ok it doesn't necessarily mean you can keep bringing truckload after truckload in. You'll need to make sure the horses food source remains the same...or do more bioassays. Windrows may be something to try depending on how much vermicompost you're after, they are also a great way to start a garden bed too. RD
Couldn't agree more with you! Horse/cow manure is a dangerous game to play. My horse manure source is top notch, been using it for years. The owner loves her horses more than anything and she uses the manure in her own gardens. I had a pretty good setup going for awhile with just a few chickens being allowed to deep litter bed in a 10x12 shack that was sharing a wall with a flower room. The chicken shack side had a 2x4 vertical flow through and a short 4x4 compost bin in it and I did deep litter bedding on the floor. Excess heat from the flowering room was dumped into the chicken shack side keeping the worms alive and the chickens water from freezing. Between deep litter bedding and the compost bin I always had something to put in the flow through. The chickens would 'turn' the compost feeding themselves and as a reward I'd throw them a handful of worms! The chickens all but guaranteed the final product was weed-free. I truly miss those chickens and the wonderful setup I had for them! RD
Thank for your input guys regarding the manure. I've already been using it from this source. It is in my Canna soil mix that I just grew 12 plants in, as well as the worm bins I've been running. I will heed your advice and keep an eye on things, but I'm pretty confident in my source.
If that's the case I'd add worms directly to the pile! Lol. Here is a good read on killer compost. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw0PqWrvDMeS9H5pSgLOn0Z2
ER - I will add some to the pile but problem is winter is cold and long here. Although I'm sure the cacoons will repopulate it next spring. Sent from my LG-LS998 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
@Organic sinse @ElRanchoDeluxe Here are those bugs...I also noticed a few months here and there when I open the bins. I think these are moth larvae that are hatching from the hay I added on top to help keep moisture. Sent from my LG-LS998 using Grasscity Forum mobile app
They kinda look like wireworms which are Click beetle larvae. Of the 900+ species in North America, some are agricultural pests, others predators of other insects and others are detritivores.If you're finding them in your compost/vermicompost, they're most likely the latter. If you have an extension office in your county with a Master Gardener program, you can usually take most insects in for identification.
Zone 4 here. Damn near Zone 3. Still got plenty of time until the bins freeze solid, usually around Thanksgiving. Cocoons will survive up to -40F. Worm populations explode when given a manure or compost pile to work on. Cold temps make them reproduce even faster, it's an indicator to produce more cocoons as a survival mechanism. RD
@Sinescent Right now I'm in the beginning of redoing everything, like, replacing ALL my soil mix and most of my VC. I really believe that I've turned my soil toxic form long term, constant applications of neem/karanja. My 'newest' soil is ~3 years old and the oldest 5+ years old. The failed garlic crop from a couple of years ago first alerted me (2016) to the overuse of neem and alliums. 2017 was pretty much a wash, but no neem was added at all. 2018's crop got me to the toxicity bit because no neem had been used at all for over a year, but there was still deformed growth. I had also fed a goodly amount to my worms (they love neem), so now I'm a bit leery of the VC from them. I did start 2 'no neem' bins that are close to ready for use. I will be making fresh bedding for the 4 bins that need to be harvested of the suspect VC. It does work fine on mature plants, but I just have so much small stuff, seedlings, clones, alliums and such. I want to have a single source that's safe for everything. My neighbor is going to make out like a bandit. LOL I'm not going to quit neem entirely, well I am for the moment, but I'll be using minimal amounts when I start adding it again. Like, 1/2cup/cf in fresh mixes and no top dressing. I'll post the bedding recipe when I make it as that's pretty much first on my list. Got my cement mixer (still in the box), and all my amendments assembled. It will be very soon. Wet
One of the most common questions we hear is, "How should I store my finished castings". I like to tell people to mulch or put cardboard over the top and keep them in a tote. Treat it like an active bin. Here is why. I looked in my VMC storage bin today and saw this. vmc in storage lots of hatchlings by Organic sinse posted Sep 17, 2018 at 7:46 PM I pulled back the cardboard and saw about a pound of worms. I knew there were a few riding a long, but I guess there were a lot more cocoons than I thought, Score!!!! cheers os
Hey Wet, I appreciate this post. I think sharing our mistakes/mishaps is beneficial to everyone. My soil mix has always been amended on the lighter side. Neem, kelp, crab and oyster always at 1/2 cup per c.f. and only 1 cup of rock dust. Even back when I was only using 20 or 30g pots. With neem being the most expensive amendment I use it's been used almost exclusively for soil mixes. Before I acquired neem I subbed alfalfa for it in my mixes. Alfalfa became my 'go to' whenever I felt the need to topdress. I've never really been a big fan of adding amendments directly to my wormbins. I think it's because I feel gratified when I know it didn't cost me a dime. All my rambling aside, I wonder if you couldn't use the heavily amended suspect VC in a soil mix without adding amendments except for some lime? Or maybe just skip the neem? I know I've seen one or two newer growers get away with this sorta thing without even having homemade VC as a humus source. RD
Amazing thread with some great information on building top notch organic soils! Thank you to all who have contributed their knowledge!
For sure it's going to get used and since the VC in my mixes rarely goes over 10% (it's super dense and closer to pure EWC than VC), and the amount added to the worm bins was more the occasional top dress than regular feedings it shouldn't be all that concentrated. Not like the years of top dressing neem in the soil mixes that have seem to gone toxic. Like I've mentioned before, I never did heavy applications, but nearly constant and regular light applications. Do that for 3 years for the newest soils, to over 5 years for the older ones and that's a hella buildup. Used, depleted mix is my fav for seeds, clones, fresh starts for veggies, in fact just about everything till I get beyond 2gal containers or so, and that's right where the toxicity hurts the worst.. Worst still, my "mixer" (son), has moved with his GF several years ago and that's why my newest mix is 3 years old. The cement mixer should take care of that problem. Once I can get it out of the truck that is. LOL Anyway, once that happens and I can *easily* make 2cf batches I'll be better able to see just what tweaks work best. Nothing major, but more like you and going to lighter inputs. It does seem that this whole 9 year arc of organic growing has been a process of cutting back (and some elimination), of where I first started from. Wet
MEA CULPA Not a big one, but still, gotta own when you're wrong. A few months back went to HD for a new set of 18 gal Rubbermaid totes for a new bin. HD no longer carries Rubbermaid, just their own HDX brand. I bitched and moaned about it and really talked it down. OS did come to it's defense and said his experiences were quite different (I had called it flimsy). This was the HDX 17 gallon tote. Fast forward to a couple days ago and working with the bins, I realized just how much I liked the HDX over the Rubbermaids as worm bins. The differences are slight with the HDX being not as tall, but a bit wider and longer(?). That increase in surface area is what made all the difference to me and was really pointed out top dressing some laying crumbles in 2, SxS bins. Surface area is a much bigger factor than depth in a worm bin. Anyway, I'm not going to be tossing my Rubbermaids, but any new totes will be the HDX. Might get one more set and make those 2 my new "nursery bins". We'll see. Wet
A word of caution, when those bins are cold, they are brittle. I just kicked myself for cracking a chunk out of one that was cold from being outside overnight. I was using a regular shovel in it and should have known better, but I was on a role, in a hurry, and just plain careless. Live and learn. cheers os
A while back my 'Feed Store" starting carrying "layer crumbles" in little 5 lb bags (It was 50# only before and I just couldn't do it). For those who don't know, 'layer crumbles' are chicken feed for laying hens. I love the crumbles. I gave 2 of my friends with worms some to try and think its incredible also. Now that it is fall I am using it in different ways. I have basically all of my veggies in containers chopped and done for the season. I mulch the tops for storage. I like to pull back the mulch and sprinkle layer crumbles every so often. Then I re-cover with mulch. Leaves are great for this. The worms in the pots love it! If I can, I add a touch of water. I also have been sprinkling some in my storage totes that contain ready to use castings, compost, ready to go soil, anything that has worms in it. I just use a teaspoon every sprinkle. I like to cover everything with damp cardboard after I sprinkle. One of things that I like about this blend of 'layer crumbles' is the calcium carbonate. This should help control any pH problems caused by the feeding. I know I was pretty late to come on board with the crumbles, but I am a firm believer. In the past I would pick just a single ingredient like corn or soy or alfalfa, and then have to think to add osf (even though osf and lime are in my mixes, its not in everything I play with and feed, like bins of compost or leaf mold). This is definitely way easier. If its easier, I tend to do things more often. My local wild birds like the crumbles too. I put a little teaspoon sized pile out on the deck, and they come and get it. cheers os
At the beginning of the summer, I started a Euro Nightcrawler bin. I haven't been real impressed so far. I only started with about 40 worms. The population doesn't seem to have grown much, but the worms are big and healthy. I was at the feed store and picked up a half pound of Euros, estimated count 400. All younger worms, and much smaller than the 40 I started with. I'm thinking the original worms were just old and past their prime. There are times when you know you are doing something right. I grabbed a gallon and a half of castings out of my storage bin, and sorted out 1 and half cups of red wigglers from just that amount of vmc. I have been feeding my storage bin of finished castings a little sprinkle of the laying mash a couple times a week, and oh boy is it a working. I also have a tote with about 15 gallons of 'straight from the pile' compost. I have been feeding this the mash too. its a winner! There must be 5 pounds of worms minimum in this thing, maybe more. This particular compost I did something neat with. At the beginning of the summer I added an extra pound or so of wigglers to this pile outside. It always has good worms in the end, but I thought I would see what happens. I will say that "Free Ranging" the wigglers to the pile for the summer was a big win. The contents of the tote were the very bottom of the pile, and all that was left. I did the same thing to my leaf mold pile, but I haven't filled up my tote for winter yet. I'm sure this thing is loaded as well. Everytime I have used some, I found lots! cheers os