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Contradictions in Faith and the Food Chain (a must read)

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by Amentia, Dec 17, 2002.

  1. Here's a wonder to ponder - An Essay

    CONTRADICTIONS IN FAITH:
    Ever wanted to point out the differences between "religion" and "spirituality"? I tend to keep myself up late at night, contemplating this. My point of view on this whole mass confusion of belief and hope is that, religion is nothing but a commercialized form of an occultism. People gathering in million dollar buildings, in front of golden crosses, and priceless marble statues, all believing in a faith which has made the sinners of the Jewish faith into people who's ignorance now is intolerable by many groups alike.
    How many of those of a particular minority have died due to "God's will"? How many Jew's have died due to "God's will"? (Apparently hypocrisy is even found in God himself, by condemning his original followers) How many people have been shunned, pushed into the streets, forced to live in boxes, due to the one infamous quote "In God we trust."
    This form of "faith" labeled "religion" is nothing more than a way of throwing away your very humanity, your very instincts, and living the rest of your life in denial.
    Spirituality may not be as different as "religion" but true spiritualists realize what the world has come to, they recognize their wrongs, and fix them, they use their "hope" as a tool to motivate themselves to correct and change. To live, to grow, to mature. That's Spirituality.
    To keep your eyes open to all the views in this world, to learn more about people who share beliefs different from your own, that's spirituality. It's a human trait to learn from eachother. I believe the definition of "spirituality" is simply pointed out in how one opens their mind to fill their souls or minds with opinions. Only through questions and opinions, can we learn. Religionists claim to have all the answers. How could someone live so ignorantly? Beats the hell out of me. But it's their life, I'm glad it isn't mine.

    THE FOOD CHAIN:
    I think humanity, as a whole should realize, we too are listed on the animal kingdom food chain. We kill animals just as they tend to kill us in most cases. We cage them up, we show them off and make them do tricks, and it's a wonder why there hasn't been a Circus Rebellion. And we still manage to cage our selves up, we manage to crack the whips at our own brothers and sisters.
    This is the way we live. We are the only species who kills eachother over the most pathetic reasons. Either because of our own inventions, or because of our emotions. Yet most people still have the nerve to consider our kind the dominant race. Sure we can play doctor on eachother and claim to have broken to the next level of Earthly God-like knowledge, but no one is the dominant in our race, yet we still kill eachother over who should be on the top of the hill of bodies. People die and crumble under our feet thanks to our superiors.
    Kings, Queens and their Kingdoms. Presidents and their staff. Everyone else is a mere pawn for his or her own personal glory. I'm sure Jesus himself realized how easy it was to manipulate the weak minded and to have those proclaimed him the Son of God. It's all a mental game.
    Some of the worlds greatest leaders, have figured this out, most have used it for what may have seemed as "wrong" such as Adolf Hitler, Fidel Castro, Joseph Stalin. The Pharaoh himself started it all by creating the worlds biggest and most ancient civilization of slaves in his name.
    Even infamous criminals figured this out. Charles Manson, for starters was a genius, realizing how week the human mind can be in a person who's weak in their search for individuality. Even Osama Bin Laden and the great Alija Muhammad have taken advantage of this mind-boggling trend.

    To sum up most of what I'm trying to say. You can't live your life by someone else's standards to survive in this world. Survival of the Fittest. Those who strive for knowledge will succeed in their quest, those who claim to have the knowledge, will not go anywhere, and those who will only accept the rules of a New York times best seller (The holy bible) will be left behind.
    These are my views, my opinions, if you judge a free mind, then you have a lot to learn my friend. You can't judge a free mind; you can only accept him/her for who they are.

    "A strong mind is a free mind."
    - Leonardo Da Vinci


    the first part "contradictions in faith", is pretty much self explanitory, people who cant make up their mind. wanna know why? cause we all strive on doubt
    and "Food chain" is about how not only do we attempt to conquer the seemingly insignificant species of earth, but we also try to conquer each other.
    Its a wonder why we arent extinct.
     
  2. Nice essay, very deep yet easy to follow.

    I've held a similar opinion regarding religion for a while now. I'm interested to hear what arguments the religious believers have against this theory.

    Perhaps that the 'faith' in itself has value and can produce good, even if the beliefs are questionable? Although given the amount of death and suffering religion has caused, perhaps not.

    I'm too stoned now, I'll have to think about this some more tommorrow.
     
  3. they dont have much of an argument, they all reply with the same thing.

    "God works in mysterious ways"

    good way to keep people "hoping" isn' it...
    by the way i wrote that myself, thanks to the influence of a well packed bowl =0)
     
  4. you are correct! lol
     

  5. lets see... i don't use the "God works in mysterious ways" i can give you statistics, but you'd probably never believe them because they contradict your point of view. you'd have them written off before even giving them a chance. if i tried using something from the Bible i'd more than likely get "you can't believe the Bible is true, blah blah blah" although i can give you quite a few facts regarding the Bible which would suggest it is true... that's what i personally don't like about Bible bashers. they call us spiritual people close minded, when they are the ones who truely are close minded. anyone who takes the Bible as truth has to have a very open mind. that's not something that's easy to accept... but to write it off as fiction without giving it an honest chance... that's close minded if ya ask me.

    you think religion is flawed? you should take a very careful look at evolution and tell me which seems more likely. i also dislike how you classify all people of religion into 1 category and label them as ignorant just because you don't believe in religion... imho i think you have had some sort of problem with some religion, and now you're just bitter towards it all because of that.
     
  6. for starters, i've read the bible, plenty of times. i know more about the bible, than most priests. I would know, i've indulged into nightly conversations or arguments with my neighbor who happens to be a priest.

    You my friend are being ignorant. In your statement alone you are apparently claiming the bible has "truth" or even "facts"... sprituality isnt fact is it? tell me does sprituality bring you facts? or hope?

    since when has religion become a statistic ;)

    not once did i bash the bible, who i am bashing, are the people who bash others for not believeing in the bible, you feel just because you found something to have faith in, that those around you who dont think the same, are lesser than you, that we are damned because we do not accept the bible as truth... Ignorance?

    your argument backfired. try again mate

    "Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance."
    -Confusious
     
  7. >> How many of those of a particular minority have died due to "God's will"? How many Jew's have died due to "God's will"? (Apparently hypocrisy is even found in God himself, by condemning his original followers) How many people have been shunned, pushed into the streets, forced to live in boxes, due to the one infamous quote "In God we trust."<<

    I noticed that you mention that you have read the Bible. I too have read it. But your quote “In God we trust” is found on OUR money… don't confuse this with what popular religion have taught it's followers.

    If careful attention would have paid to the verses siting whom I believe was Paul, when he stated, “I show my faith BY my works” vs. those who simply say, I have faith God will provide and walk away without doing anything for his fellow neighbor, then you would probably would not have made that comment or would have qualified it and not generalize that ALL believers are alike.

    >> This form of "faith" labeled "religion" is nothing more than a way of throwing away your very humanity, your very instincts, and living the rest of your life in denial.<<

    I most certainly agree with your statement above.

    >> I believe the definition of "spirituality" is simply pointed out in how one opens their mind to fill their souls or minds with opinions. Only through questions and opinions, can we learn.<<

    Why assume ALL monotheists are closed minded and lack the desire to “fill” their souls, or that those who believe do NOT question and hear opinions and augment their spirituality as those who proclaim to be spiritualists?

    >>Religionists claim to have all the answers. <<

    Again this seems to be a generalized assumptions of “religionists.” Remember there is a big different between fanatics and simple adherents.

    >>How could someone live so ignorantly? Beats the hell out of me. But it's their life, I'm glad it isn't mine.<<

    How much different are “True Spiritualists” from the “Religionists” who does ”nothing more than a way of throwing away your very humanity, your very instincts, and living the rest of your life in denial”? And those were your exact words.

    >>true spiritualists realize what the world has come to, they recognize their wrongs, and fix them, they use their "hope" as a tool to motivate themselves to correct and change.<<

    If you are correct in your assumption that for lack of inaction to help “humanity” then you are either a hypocrite or not a true Spiritualist if you really mean what you said with, ”But it's their life, I'm glad it isn't mine.” This phrase make you appear as one who is REALLY not concerned with “humanity”

    >> To keep your eyes open to all the views in this world, to learn more about people who share beliefs different from your own, that's spirituality.<<

    I'm sure you are not intending to give the impression that you are not concerned with “humanity” by not understanding the religious and cultural differences between Jewish people and non Jews, and that you are really a “True Spiritualist,” but judging from your remark above, and I quote you again, “ all believing in a faith which has made the sinners of the Jewish faith into people who's ignorance now is intolerable by many groups alike.“ That quote sounds as if it's coming from someone who has not attempted to understand the Jewish faith and how their belief in intertwined with their culture.

    I'm strictly assuming here that you have omitted the Muslims due to your desire to generalize and not to exculpate those Muslims who are overzealous in their belief and have gone to war as well in the name of RELIGION.

    >> We are the only species who kills each other over the most pathetic reasons.<<

    I must disagree with that…there are plenty of animals, my dog for instance, who kills rabbits in my yard just for sport. I guess we can always throw in the famous… he has the innate skill for doing so, just like Christians like to say…”it's a mystery” ???

    >> I'm sure Jesus himself realized how easy it was to manipulate the weak minded and to have those proclaimed him the Son of God. It's all a mental game.<<

    The funny thing is he walked the earth with no place to call home… he had no money, he eat with friends, publicans, tax collectors, etc… Now ask yourself, would YOU or MOST people here really listen to a Hobo? Because the truth of the matter is, he was a hobo.

    The mental games played in the name of Religion come from those who believe that because of their “Intelligence” they are able to manipulate people into following what s/he says… but if one is able to apply reason and wisdom to truth, then all these murders in the name of “religion” would NOT have taken place.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus say that if a man should slap you, one should turn the other cheek? Or if a man should suit you, then you are to give him not only your shirt, but your cloak as well. Maybe I just misread that part. ~_^.

    >> Some of the worlds greatest leaders, have figured this out, most have used it for what may have seemed as "wrong" <<

    You are definitely confusing the hunger for power with the reason why Jesus pastored his followers. If I am not mistaken again, Jesus said he came to serve and serve he did. NONE of the leaders you mentioned has EVER served his people, they have served ONLY themselves.

    Let me make it clear that I am one who admire the charisma and the oratory skills of those infamous leaders you have mentioned to the point of being called a Nazi. But all things must be in correct perspective.

    >> You can't live your life by someone else's standards to survive in this world. Survival of the Fittest.<<

    Your choice of closing with those words, when YOU yourself made a point to introduce the infamous leaders who BELIEVED in “Survival of the fittest, ” seems odd to me.

    >> those who will only accept the rules of a New York times best seller (The holy bible) will be left behind.<<

    I have to repeat, your statement is as those whom you abhor and call ignorant. They believe if you do not think as they you are stupid and you do the same.

    >> "A strong mind is a free mind."
    - Leonardo Da Vinci <<

    Funny you should quote Da Vinci when he was inspired by the same book you mock.

    >> You my friend are being ignorant. <<
    Not very Spiritual of you I might add.

    >> apparently claiming the bible has "truth" or even "facts"<<

    Ever looked in at the Bible from a historical perspective?

    >> sprituality isnt fact is it? tell me does sprituality bring you facts? or hope?<<

    The Bible brings “hope” as does “Spirituality.” The hope either offers is that one will in FACT see what one desires.

    >> not once did i bash the bible<<

    Well… your statement, “those who will only accept the rules of a New York times best seller (The holy bible) will be left behind.” can be interpreted as you stating that those who ONLY accept what the Bible states, which means, if they ONLY believe what the Bible says, then they are ignorant. If you would have considered the Bible a book of knowledge or at least one what can provide wisdom or even a direction, then you would not have said what you did.

    You see, my grandmother is one who follows the Bible, but is not a fanatic. She would give her last piece of bread to ANYONE who asks her. She opens the door to ALL and leave none out. She lives to do good and not once have I know her to do evil. And I tell you, there is MORE wisdom stored in her mind and heart than MOST so called intelligent, and Spiritualist I have ever and will EVER meet.

    >> "Real knowledge is to know the extent of ones ignorance."
    -Confusious<<

    One should really adhere to those words, Confucius was quite a brilliant man. You may want to read “The Analects of Confucius,” and notice how it parallels the Bible.

    Thanks for the read babe, quite interesting indeed.

    I hope you get the grade you truly deserve. :)

    All the best.

    Den Activist
     
  8. basically, who gives a fuck if some people want to believe that theres a god.. in the end it all just comes down to belief versus nonbelief, with each side believing that theyre right (or the other guy is wrong) without any definite proof either way.. sure you can pick apart the bible, but science can never totally disprove the possibility that there really is some dude up in the sky that lets us into the heavens once we die, and since we arent going to find out until its too late, lets just all light one up and drop it. people will always believe what they want to believe, and if it makes them less afraid of death or gives them purpose, than more power to them
     

  9. ok... but did you give it a chance and say "hmmm... maybe this could be true" or did you say "that's ridiculous, it's not right" there's a difference between reading something and giving it a shot.


    ok... maybe you should stop twisting my words around and see what i actually said. i said i could provide facts and statistics that could show the Bible as being true... not that the Bible is a statistic, or that spirituallity is a fact.


    you bashed the Bible several times by calling people of faith or religion ignorant because they believe in something you don't.

    now... you should really stop classifying everyone of religion into one category. for starters, the christian religion contains many different denominations which in some cases have totally opposing views on certain matters.

    i like how you call me ignorant when i gave all sides an equal chance, and made my decision based on evidence i've seen. i chose to believe the Bible because what it says contains truth... i know of several people who were destined for death (meaning the doctors told them they had no chance, and to get ready 'cause they were gonna die) pray to JESUS... not allah, not buddah... Jesus... and guess what. they all survived to the complete astonishment of the doctors... i failed to see this in other religions or science... that for one was a reason i made my choice. they pray to their God and stuff happens. it can be very convincing.... so yeah, i hardly consider myself ignorant. i kept my options open, leaned what i could about 'em, and made my decision.
     
  10. you apparently have not kept your eyes open. little do you know the things that muslims an buddists have seen, without any faith in "jesus"

    if you knew, you'd definately find their "miracles" far more convincing.

    Now again, theres a difference between bashing the bible, and the people who worship the bible

    repeating your previous argument shows lack of "research" as it were.

    and im glad you pointed out how there are so many different branches of christianity.
    that alone should be convincing enough to show, even those who worship the same entity, still show conflict with eachother..
    if you ask me, thats pretty pathetic.

    Now i classify you as ignorant, cause you choose to find my words as conflicting, its a view or an opinion. You dont seek truth, you only seek petty fights, just cause you are afraid to step over the boundries and try for once in your life to discover something new and different.

    once again, your argument is weak

    "Philosophy is an open door, religion is a wall that is stubborn towards those who want to see outside." -Kant
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. >>you apparently have not kept your eyes open. little do you know the things that muslims an buddists have seen, without any faith in "jesus"<<

    The general definition I use for faith is the following…

    Faith, is the substance of the things a person HOPES for, and used as the evidence of things NOT seen. Therefore, faith, be it in Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or in oneself, posses the same qualities.

    Belief vs. Faith

    Belief would not open himself to be searched and revealed, but faith, because of its meaning, will allow prodding, analysis, and criticism, but hold fast and steady to what one chooses to believe as truth, fully knowing that ALL questions ARE NOT answered.

    This brings me that special person one can meet on the net.

    You are talking to some girl on the net. You get to know her without having seen her. To the naked eye, she may not look “Wow!” He who has gotten to know this girl based solely on her words, and has captured her essence by allowing his heart to feel her, becomes hopeful that girl is the one for him because he has fallen in love. You don't know if this person is really as you have translated her words to be, but you have faith that everything that is good is embodied in her, until she proves you wrong. When you finally get to see her in person and you realize that she is NOT what you expected visually, but by that time it's too late because your heart is in control and you love her for what she is, not for what she looks like. There is no turning back unless what you have read her heart to be like has been a lie.

    This same girl, if you see her first, you may not be interested in her because she is not what you are looking for in a woman. He has seen the ugly, but has not allowed the beautiful to be revealed by giving her a chance to open her heart to him. Those who have heard, seen, and read about “Christians” and their history without reading the Bible with their heart will treat the message as my make believe character.

    True Believers are those who have read it and have fallen in love with the words. They have faith that what they have read is true because the God described in it is what they are looking for IF there is a God. God is accepted and loved based on what their heart tells them He is.

    True Believers are the ones who have searched and “felt” God in their lives, with THEIR heart, rather than allowed people they know to share God vicariously and or dictate their what their faith should be composed of.

    You know a true believer from a fake by the fruit he bears... an Apple tree cannot bear lemons.

    I know… my analogies often times suck. But by George that is the best I can do! ^_~

    >> and im glad you pointed out how there are so many different branches of christianity. that alone should be convincing enough to show, even those who worship the same entity, still show conflict with eachother.. if you ask me, thats pretty pathetic.<<

    I agree with you that it's pretty pathetic indeed for people who supposedly believe in the same God to have conflict with each other, but you MUST know that there are different denominations in Islam and Judaism as well, no? :)

    >> Now i classify you as ignorant, cause you choose to find my words as conflicting, its a view or an opinion.

    Babe, you do realize that even if you do have an opinion, others can still find that you are not logical and/or lack accuracy, right?
    >> You dont seek truth, you only seek petty fights,<<

    I don't think he is seeking a petty fight over what you believe or don't believe, but is more concerned with you presenting the most accurate account you possibly can.

    >> "Philosophy is an open door, religion is a wall that is stubborn towards those who want to see outside." –Kant<<

    I believe philosophy IS an open door; however, those who believe do not lack knowledge, wisdom, or understanding if they are able to move away from blind worship of their LEADERS (Pastors, Priest, Clergies, etc…) who choose to take the Bible, Rig Veda, Qur'an, or Dhammapad and make it as an “Elastic Clause” to fit their needs.

    If anything, those who have faith, not BELIEF, can augment the field of philosophy by having studied different religions and understanding why a man thinks and behaves the way he does based on his religious convictions.

    Later love.

    Den Activist
     
  12. well humans are coming close to machines with growing speed, computers use humans to make them faster, smarter, more personal, and more capable to do things by themselves. We are cells, atoms, origins but we are still all born out of star dust, wich is the origin of life and has come from the death of the star, wich is necessary for life and growing of space. Who knows? I f we'd go million years to the future we could look very animalish etc. unless.... the human race has an odd fear against anything unfamiliar and different.

    Religion? yeah it's a good tool for manipulating people in need and keep them at least somewhat happy, no harm done there, but when it comes to explaining things as an "act of god" "the will of god" then it's all goin' wrong quite fast, there's nothing religious about reading a book and goin' to a building and singing, it's all made by norms etc. you're not a good christian, you don't go to church, as if the church would be somewhat special place where "god" hears you're prayers better....

    The planet earth was working fine untill people started to move around (well by walking it wasn't so harmfull 'cos it took a long time to get from africa to scandinavia) bringin' diseases etc. to ekosystem where they mutated into something more dangerous. now at the time of everyday flying, space travel, world wide communication etc. people are everywhere (in places where they maybe shouldn't be) and using the nature to gain more wealth, at the process of makin' money it isn't so easy to look into the future. Human race works like a cancer, finding uninfected areas, moving there and breed, then to the next place etc . etc. Now when the earth is concuerd it's time to move to next planets, mars, jupiter, pluto etc. it'll take time, but humans will go there...
     

  13. Religion simply stated is the practice of what you believe put in action.

    I have to disagree in part only with... "there's nothing religious about reading a book and goin' to a building and singing, it's all made by norms etc."

    Let me explain why... people have become RITUALISTIC and do that just to keep with what you term "norm." Once you do something just for keeping with the norm, or making a ritual, then it loses it's efficacy.

    This is why you have SO many so-called “Christians,” who believe that just because they read the Bible, go to church and sing a few songs they are holier than thou and EVERYONE else who does not do the same must be wicked and EVIL.
    That is wrong!

    The REAL reason why church is encouraged is for one to spend time together with those who believe what you believe and share in the experience when you have a problem those of the church are to resolve your problem by providing for you, be it spiritually alone, or with financial help if that be the case.

    If more ppl would truly use the church what it was meant for, then we wouldn't even have needed a welfare system. We would have needed very few residential treatment centers and few tax dollars going into the Mental Health professions. The problem we have here in poverty would have been practically nonexistent. But those same "Christians" who have made going to church just a ritual have forgotten what it really means to do good and to assist those in need.

    Look at it like this… Tokers like to hang with tokers… It fulfills their need to communicate with people of like mind and to share experiences. It helps to bring out your frustration about the way you feel about the laws in regards to MJ.

    Why do YOU want to meet with other tokers? Perhaps to learn how to grow, in more than one way. ;)

    I have to go to work now so...later dude.

    Den Activist
     
  14. some conversations dont change much......

    but here are a few perspectives we dont have round anymore.....;):smoke:
     

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