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Contradicting info and questions on no till

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by DDP, Nov 8, 2014.

  1. No till gardening : super duper basic concept is don't disturb the soil, add compost/mulch on top and it gets watered down as it decomposes making a healthier soil...

    Worms are good for soil, more the merrier. Composting worms generally live in top 3-6" of the soil.

    Now the stumper, I read so many times that our plants like the soil to dry out between waterings. How to keep work at top alive and moist if the plants want drier soil?

    Also read of many people with Sub Irrigation Pots. Water from the top up. With this the worms would get the moisture last while the roots never dry out...

    What am I missing or what büllsh¡t did I read?


    http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-grow-journals/1341205-solar-spec-1040-white-led-vs-mars-ii-2100.html#entry20859361
     
  2. I think you got it here. Moist good, wet bad. Whether you doin no till or not, organic soil works best when kept a steady moisture level. If 1 is bone dry and 10 is soaked, a range from 3-7 is ideal. Fabric pots help everything breath for sure, but some people around here use the hard plastic pots just fine.
     
  3. There's an optimum level of water-tension desired in the soil to maintain water-uptake. Some people use SIPs or irrigation systems like blumats that will keep the moisture level in your soil constant. Letting the soil dry out in-between waterings is bad information. I believe the idea comes from thinking drying out the soil w// allow the roots access to more oxygen, but as long as you have proper aeration and the roots aren't sitting in stagnant water, you won't have a problem.  Water and dissolved minerals travel through a plant's xylem tissue by water tension, letting the soil dry out will affect this function negatively.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. DDP, I've been running fabric SIPs the longest here that I know. I can tell you that it is a great idea to let the pots lose moisture. Not dry out but lose capacity. I usually do this prior to SST application. Then fill the res again. I've devolved my original design http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1075960-self-watering-containers.html?p=15458951 to just using the 10" net pots filled with hydrotron and placing a 35 gallon geoplanter on top. It's been working great, but as with everything you learn how to get the best use of it.  
     
    HTH
     
  5. I'm pretty sure the dry in between waterings came from none other then Mr. Whore Hey in that aweful book I still see people buying..
     
    My line of thought goes like this, go into a forest, woods, something that's lush and is undisturbed by man and look at the ground. What do you see? Peel back that humus/mulch layer and then what do you see? Nice, moist soil. It always makes me grin...
     
    As Cannabis gardeners some 'think' that our sacred plant needs something special and different then every other plant out there. There needs to be less 'thinking' and more observing because nature has been showing us how its done for many, many years. Way before there was ever a Marijuana Growers Bible.
     
    Now, if you are going to attempt to grow in a medium that does not have proper ratios to keep it from getting soggy, sloppy and wet and without proper aeration then yes, your asking for problems. If your mix is right and you use quality materials and the BEST humic source you can get your hands on then sit back and watch the health of the plants. Seriously, second to none.
     
    Just my .02, of course!
     
    TwB
     
  6.  
     
    If I understand part of your question correctly as it relates to no-till you're asking about adding worms to the container? That's not a good idea for a lot of reasons not the least of which would be container size and waste of energy and a waste of worms.
     
    Don't ever let your plant's soil dry out. If you can pick up material on the surface and make a ball out of it it's too wet, yada, yada.
     
    If you're using small containers, <10g, use the bamboo stick method for checking soil moisture. It works very well and on the same prinicple as checking a baking cake for wetness/moisture with a toothpick; stick it in several places in the container and its appearance will tell you how moist things are in "the zone".
     
    Oh yeh bubba. There are a lot of myths and a lot of often unnecessary tasks people perform in their organic gardens around here, there, and everywhere. It's usually been my experience that certain some folks don't like it much when that's pointed out. Topics such as ACT's, FPE's, K-Mag, fulvic acid, and stuff like that are at the top of the list. Hell, even mentioning perlite as an acceptable areation component can get some people flying around the room backwards with hair on fire.  :bongin:  :bongin:  :bongin: ... and a lot of that is certainly BS I tell ya the truth about it.
     
    Stick to good horticultural practices in all that you do and you'll be fine in all that you do. Maintaining proper moisture is a learned skill. It's a necessity IMO. Too dry is too bad.
     
  7. I will check your thread after a cup of coffee... What is SST application, this is a new term to me.


    http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-grow-journals/1341205-solar-spec-1040-white-led-vs-mars-ii-2100.html#entry20859361
     
  8. Lots of info, ok how do you check moisture on >10gal?


    http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-grow-journals/1341205-solar-spec-1040-white-led-vs-mars-ii-2100.html#entry20859361
     
  9. http://forum.grasscity.com/indoor-grow-journals/1341205-solar-spec-1040-white-led-vs-mars-ii-2100.html#entry20859361
     
  10. SST=Sprouted Seed Tea. We're starting to call it an "enzyme tea" since that's what it does: introduces enzymes to your soil that help all the processes involved from breaking down organic material to a plant's uptake of the "bioavaliable" nutrients in the soil.
     
    Most often these are being made from malted barley grains, like what you'll see referenced 100x a day in the No-Till thread. :laughing:
     
  11. #13 Anatman, Nov 9, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2014
    If you don't have access to malted grains, there are ways to make these teas yourself. This topic should be an interesting read:
    http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1245650-sst-sprouted-seed-tea.html
    I believe there's also interest in using corn because of it's higher levels of cytokinin.
     
    IIRC the liquid (water) from young, 'green', coconuts can be used to the (somewhat) same effect.
     
  12.  
     
    That's beyond my personal pay grade. I personally can think of only a couple of plant species that live for ~6 months and then harvested that need to be grown in anything larger. Unless CO2 is being used effectively then it's a whole other ball game.
     
    If moisture measurement is your concern perhaps one of the large container no-till guys is best prepared to answer that question. Size does matter in this case. Otherwise, a pointed stick larger than a bamboo skewer will probably still do the job. You're not going to harm the plant by sticking a stick in the soil.
     
  13. Possum-  I am going to have to respectfully disagree w/ most of this post.
     
    Having a healthy worm population whether in a no-till or recycled soil set-up is certainly not a waste of energy or worms, especially in a no-till situation. They actually are a large part of maintaining a healthy soil, helping to convert the mulch layer into humus.
     
    I feel like the best method to see if a plant under ten gallons needs water would be the 'lift' method.
     
    ACT, FPE, and fulvic acid are myths? I will give you that they are unnecessary. ACT will reproduce microbes. FPE will extract elements from plant material, however most compounds will be lost. Fulvic acid will increase germination rates. Maybe I'm missing something here?
     
    Perlite is acceptable to me in recycled soil mixes. It is not acceptable to me in a no-till situation since it floats to the top. Unlike lava rock or pumice there are no minerals to be gained. The dust from it is toxic to the lungs. Acceptable in certain situations but not ideal.
     
    Just my .02 cents.
     
    RD
     
  14.  
    Possum-  I am going to have to respectfully disagree w/ most of this post.   Thank you and okay.
     
    Having a healthy worm population whether in a no-till or recycled soil set-up is certainly not a waste of energy or worms, especially in a no-till situation. They actually are a large part of maintaining a healthy soil, helping to convert the mulch layer into humus. 
     
    Perhaps I err'ed in not specifying that my response here specifically related to <10g or less containers. The OP wasn't specific on container size and in my response neither was I. That said, I'll take the Missouri stance and say "show me" that composting and vermicomposting belong in the same container at the same time with a growing plant and I'll recant. I'm sure there's somebody doing it in a jumbo sized container and perhaps they're being successful with it. IDK. The OP may be doing a 100g grow and if so I need ro STFup.
     
    I feel like the best method to see if a plant under ten gallons needs water would be the 'lift' method.
     
    Can't disagree with that. There have been some of "us" (read that as "me") have used skewers and other methods to try and determine soil moisture when we've nothing more productive to do and had a lot of spare time on our hands. It does work but a giant no-till container? Probably not so much. And, I've heard the big ones are pretty heavy.
     
    ACT, FPE, and fulvic acid are myths? I will give you that they are unnecessary. ACT will reproduce microbes. FPE will extract elements from plant material, however most compounds will be lost. Fulvic acid will increase germination rates. Maybe I'm missing something here?
     
    These methods are not myths per se but they do have a more practical purpose outdoors and not necessarily with container gardening. They are myths if they are suggested as proscribed tasks to perform for results "guaranteed to amaze". Simply not true - a myth. These tasks are a lot of fun to perform, a tremendous amount can be learned going about the rituals to accomplish them, but being necessary for indoor container garden I call BS. Just ain't necessary and I stand by this for indoor use.
     
    Perlite is acceptable to me in recycled soil mixes. It is not acceptable to me in a no-till situation since it floats to the top. Unlike lava rock or pumice there are no minerals to be gained. The dust from it is toxic to the lungs. Acceptable in certain situations but not ideal.
     
    Agreed. But if you, for whatever reason, chose to use it in your garden I personally would never infer that you were a moron or a mental midget for doing so. Some people might. Never me.
     
    Just my .02 cents.
     
    And my .02 as well. I'm not held in high regard for many of my opinions that I've formed through actual hands on experience. Those I've specifically addressed are those that I've learned from and specifically relate to indoor container gardening using <10g containers. And, those topics are those that I began squawking about 2+ years ago as "unnecessary, risky, and not recommended" for indoor container growing.  I became quite the pariah. Otherwise, large container indoor grows and specifically large no-till grows ZERO actual experience and I defer to those more experienced than I.
     
     
    Nice discourse :smoking:
     
  15. Highya Poss :wave: I'm curious why your opinion on fulvic acid is what it is? I just started using the stuff and don't have much experience with it yet.

    TJ
     
  16. TJ, the best answer i can offer is this; the product(s) from BioAg are designed to be used in open field agriculture. FA specicically, HA more generally, are extremely powerful compounds whose entire range of functions in the soil is not 100% completely understood. FA specifically is so powerful as a chelating agent that if you use 'too much' it will not only kill your plant but it will also make that specific container of soil so unhospitable to a future growing plant that you should and must compost it before using it again.

    Dr. Faust and his crew are wonderfully nice people. His website home page states, "Our mantra is keep it simple". Sage advice coming from someone who is probably a or the leading world wide expert on FA and HA. His advice, again specific to his FA product, is to call or email his crew with your questions. I did 3 years ago. Thus my opinion was formed based on my experience and the sage advice of Dr. Faust. I killed my plants with BioAg products and it wasnt because of a shitty product. It was because of me using it in a container plant. Container gardening is NOT agriculture.

    Not saying using the product in a container is a NO-NO. Just saying be careful using it in a container and definitelt dont overdo it. I encourage everyone to check out the good Dr's opinion. He's easily reachable....

    Good morning :bongin:
     
  17. I appreciate your thorough answer, friend :wave:

    I've got a whole quart of the stuff, so I will continue to use it sparingly. That is one thing that I've read (on here) aboat FA: it is very easy to FUBAR your plants/soil with this stuff. I think that @FickySiskars had to compost his pile of soil for a long while after an HA overdose.

    I definitely agree with the KISS sage advice. Water-only ftw! If your soil is kickass, then I see no reason for any extra additives. With kelp "tea" I have managed to revitalize a few not-so-happy-looking plants, so I think that these "teas" certainly have a place, but they are not necessary if your "humus" is up to par in your potting soil.

    Starting to think that the same could be said for FA.. if your compost is teeming with life and is well-cured, then FA is probably unnecessary. I have yet to see any major improvements with the addition of FA to my regiment in my short time using it. Maybe my opinion will change over time. For now, I don't think that it is a "must have" by any means. Certainly not like kelp and vermicompost.

    TJ
     
  18. #20 waktoo, Nov 10, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
    How are excessive amounts of humic/fulvic acids ameliorated by composting soils that contain such?
     

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