Just had the following thought: Just because we don't understand the intuitive computer language does not mean it does not exist. In the same way we understand some explicit aspects of how our computers work, "our" computers understand us in a sense as well, but each are virtual in a sense, and somehow incomplete. Perhaps understanding this is most fundamental.
I'm going to have to disagree. Computers do not 'understand' us. They run off a sequence of codes and frequencies, no understanding required. There is no evidence of computers understanding us.
Why do you say this? Don't we respond to their response to us? Simply because we do not know the full potential ability of computers to experience their existence does not mean one does not exist.
Many people including myself may not fully understand computer language, but it is not a matter of intuition. Until true artificial intelligence is created, computers are only as smart as their software, which was created by humans who fully understand it. It is true that we respond to computers responding to us, but they only respond to us because their software was coded to do so. Their response may mimic that of a living thing but it is entirely artificial, nothing more than codes and frequencies as collie said. They are nothing more than a very complex tool. If I am using a hammer to pound in a nail and smash my finger causing me to yell in pain, I have also responded to its response to me. Does that mean the hammer has potential to experience its existence?
Sure. Why not? Anything you separate and conceptualize could have the spirit of life (in a sense). Sure, it's not human living, but perhaps that's because it's inverse to it?
We do know the full capability of the computers we create. If you're saying that we cannot know the full capacity of technology's potential and one day technology may adapt and respond to us, then I see where you're coming from. However, modern computers cannot respond to us. We are merely responding to ourselves through an extremely complex input/output system.
Oh, is that so? You don't think something about our existence mirrors computer lag? If we knew all there was to know, we still wouldn't understand because that takes time. Call it a cycle if that helps. EDIT: We help computers sometimes, they help us sometimes.
I don't see computers as alive though, human or any other form. If computers are alive simply because we conceptualized them that would mean every other human-created object is also alive. By this virtue the desk my computer is sitting on is alive, the walls surrounding me, the asphalt my driveway is paved with, etc. We do know everything there is to know about computers currently though because as they are an entirely human invention, we created everything there is to know. Certainly a day may come when this is no longer a fact with the advent of true artificial intelligence, but until that day comes we know all there is to know. Computers as of today do not exhibit intuition or any other behaviors that would suggest knowledge of existence. I don't really think our existence mirrors computer lag anymore than a backfiring car mirrors a human with a flatulence issue.
Picture all that in a virtual world - it all comes together in one peace. And we know why, truly how, really where, exactly when it happened, this invention? What about mind leaps? Aren't those sort of inverse to the computers' lag?
Indeed we do. You could say the earliest form of "computer" was the abacus, dating as far back as 2400 BC, the advent of mechanical calculators in the 1600's, punch cards in the 1800's, the advent of electronic calculations in the mid 1900's, and so on until present day. The invention of the computer is no more mysterious than that of the internal combustion engine or any other work of human technology. I am not familiar with mind leaps and unfortunately Google doesn't seem to be either, I would be happy to answer that if you could explain.
If you are passionately interested in this discussion, I recommend "The Age of Spiritual Machines" by Ray Kurzweil. Possibly one of the most important books written in our century. Find a way to download it on the internet if you cannot find a copy locally.
To me that isn't really the same as computer lag. Lag can be caused by many things but generally boils down to a software demand that hardware cannot adequately meet, and mind leaps as you describe them are a result of the nature of our consciousness to focus only on a single concept at once. Although they manifest in similar ways I still see them as inherently different due to the great difference in their causes. And with that note I'm off to bed as it's 1:30 here, I'll continue this discussion in the morning if the thread is still active or feel free to respond in a PM/visitor message @ArgoSG, That book sounds interesting, I will add it to the already very long "to read" list.
Right, and from our software perspective (ego) it seems like our hardware isn't quite enough (to stand the test of time?). How about I put it this way: perhaps we share reality.
My pleasure. When you guys are done with it we could start a thread in this part of the forum to discuss.
I don't have any, I was suggesting it more in my interest of what you guys thought about what the author wrote. The general conclusion of the book is that your life on earth will be utterly mindblowing as long as human beings survive long enough to not kill themselves in the next few decades, mainly because technology is advancing at such a rapid rate. The book explains all the various technological advances we can expect and how interacting with highly advanced computers will impact our lives.
From Wikipedia: The Age Of Spiritual Machines is a book by futurist Ray Kurzweil about the future course of humanity, particularly relating to the development of artificial intelligence and its impact on human consciousness. It is also a study on the concept of technological singularity. Content Originally published in 1999, the book predicts that machines with human-like intelligence will be available from affordable computing devices within a couple of decades, revolutionizing most aspects of life, and that eventually humanity and its machinery will become one and the same. In order to help the reader understand the concepts portrayed in the book (and for the book to make its predictions pseudo-realistic), the author has conversations with Molly, a typical human being. At the start of the book, Molly is a 23-year-old woman who has little understanding of the concepts that are discussed in the book, yet has an enigmatic (sometimes romantic) interest in the author, which keeps her interested. By the time the book reaches Part III, Facing the Future, Molly has somewhat of a grasp on all these concepts. It is during Part III that she physiologically and technologically evolves (as predicted by the author) as the years go by, to the point that by the year 2099 (the farthest point in the author's scope), she has shed all biological matter and has become a dynamic, conscious sub-entity within a larger, singular entity, all within a machine (a Spiritual Machine, as it were). "Molly" has become so dynamic, in fact, that she is (in her words) ready to do anything, or be anything, you want or need. Organization Prologue: An Inexorable Emergence PART ONE: PROBING THE PAST Chapter One: The Law of Time and Chaos Chapter Two: The Intelligence of Evolution Chapter Three: Of Mind and Machines Chapter Four: A New Form of Intelligence on Earth Chapter Five: Context and Knowledge PART TWO: PREPARING THE PRESENT Chapter Six: Building New Brains... Chapter Seven: ...And Bodies Chapter Eight: 1999 PART THREE: TO FACE THE FUTURE Chapter Nine: 2009 Chapter Ten: 2019 Chapter Eleven: 2029 Chapter Twelve: 2099 Epilogue: The Rest of the Universe Revisited Time Line How To Build an Intelligent machine In Three Easy Paradigms Future Predictions 2019 A $1,000 personal computer has as much raw power as the human brain. The summed computational powers of all computers is comparable to the total brainpower of the human race. Computers are embedded everywhere in the environment (inside of furniture, jewelry, walls, clothing, etc.). People experience 3-D virtual reality through glasses and contact lenses that beam images directly to their retinas (retinal display). Coupled with an auditory source (headphones), users can remotely communicate with other people and access the Internet. These special glasses and contact lenses can deliver "augmented reality" and "virtual reality" in three different ways. First, they can project "heads-up-displays" (HUDs) across the user's field of vision, superimposing images that stay in place in the environment regardless of the user's perspective or orientation. Second, virtual objects or people could be rendered in fixed locations by the glasses, so when the user's eyes look elsewhere, the objects appear to stay in their places. Third, the devices could block out the "real" world entirely and fully immerse the user in a virtual reality environment. People communicate with their computers via two-way speech and gestures instead of with keyboards. Furthermore, most of this interaction occurs through computerized assistants with different personalities that the user can select or customize. Dealing with computers thus becomes more and more like dealing with a human being. Most business transactions or information inquiries involve dealing with a simulated person. Most people own more than one P.C., though the concept of what a "computer" is has changed considerably: Computers are no longer limited in design to laptops or CPUs contained in a large box connected to a monitor. Instead, devices with computer capabilities come in all sorts of unexpected shapes and sizes. Cables connecting computers and peripherals have almost completely disappeared. Rotating computer memories are no longer used. Three-dimensional nanotube lattices are the dominant computing substrate. Massively parallel neural nets and genetic algorithms are in wide use. Destructive scans of the brain and noninvasive brain scans have allowed scientists to understand the brain much better. The algorithms that allow the relatively small genetic code of the brain to construct a much more complex organ are being transferred into computer neural nets. Pinhead-sized cameras are everywhere. Nanotechnology is more capable and is in use for specialized applications, yet it has not yet made it into the mainstream. "Nanoengineered machines" begin to be used in manufacturing. Thin, lightweight, handheld displays with very high resolutions are the preferred means for viewing documents. The aforementioned computer eyeglasses and contact lenses are also used for this same purpose, and all download the information wirelessly. Computers have made paper books and documents almost completely obsolete. Most learning is accomplished through intelligent, adaptive courseware presented by computer-simulated teachers. In the learning process, human adults fill the counselor and mentor roles instead of being academic instructors. These assistants are often not physically present, and help students remotely. Students still learn together and socialize, though this is often done remotely via computers. All students have access to computers. Most human workers spend the majority of their time acquiring new skills and knowledge. Blind people wear special glasses that interpret the real world for them through speech. Sighted people also use these glasses to amplify their own abilities. Retinal and neural implants also exist, but are in limited use because they are less useful. Deaf people use special glasses that convert speech into text or signs, and music into images or tactile sensations. Cochlear and other implants are also widely used. People with spinal cord injuries can walk and climb steps using computer-controlled nerve stimulation and exoskeletal robotic walkers. Language translating machines are of much higher quality, and are routinely used in conversations. Access to the Internet is completely wireless and provided by wearable or implanted computers. Devices that deliver sensations to the skin surface of their users (i.e.--tight body suits and gloves) are also sometimes used in virtual reality to complete the experience. "Virtual sex"--in which two people are able to have sex with each other through virtual reality, or in which a human can have sex with a "simulated" partner that only exists on a computer--becomes a reality. Just as visual- and auditory virtual reality have come of age, haptic technology has fully matured and is completely convincing, yet requires the user to enter a V.R. booth. It is commonly used for computer sex and remote medical examinations. It is the preferred sexual medium since it is safe and enhances the experience. Worldwide economic growth has continued. There has not been a global economic collapse. The vast majority of business interactions occur between humans and simulated retailers, or between a human's virtual personal assistant and a simulated retailer. Household robots are ubiquitous and reliable. Computers do most of the vehicle driving—-humans are in fact prohibited from driving on highways unassisted. Furthermore, when humans do take over the wheel, the onboard computer system constantly monitors their actions and takes control whenever the human drives recklessly. As a result, there are very few transportation accidents. Prototype personal flying vehicles using microflaps exist. They are also primarily computer-controlled. Humans are beginning to have deep relationships with automated personalities, which hold some advantages over human partners. The depth of some computer personalities convinces some people that they should be accorded more rights. Public places and workplaces are ubiquitously monitored to prevent violence and all actions are recorded permanently. Personal privacy is a major political issue, and some people protect themselves with unbreakable computer codes. The basic needs of the underclass are met. (Not specified if this pertains only to the developed world or to all countries) Computers are also found inside of some humans in the form of cybernetic implants. These are most commonly used by disabled people to regain normal physical faculties (i.e. - Retinal implants allow the blind to see and spinal implants coupled with mechanical legs allow the paralyzed to walk). Most roads now have automated driving systems--networks of monitoring and communication devices that allow computer-controlled automobiles to safely navigate. Human-robot relationships begin as simulated personalities become more convincing. Virtual artists--creative computers capable of making their own art and music--emerge in all fields of the arts. While a growing number of humans believe that their computers and the simulated personalities they interact with are intelligent to the point of human-level consciousness, experts dismiss the possibility that any could pass the Turing Test. Ubiquitous connectivity high bandwidth communications connection to the Internet at all times Interaction with virtual personalities as a primary interface Effective language technologies (natural language processing, speech recognition, speech synthesis) 2029 A $1,000 personal computer is 1,000 times more powerful than the human brain. The vast majority of computation is done by computers. Further progress has been made in understanding the secrets of the human brain. Hundreds of distinct sub-regions with specialized functions have been identified. Some of the algorithms that code for development of these regions have been deciphered and incorporated into neural net computers. Massively parallel neural nets, which are constructed through reverse-engineering the human brain, are in common use. The eyeglasses and headphones that used to deliver virtual reality are now obsolete thanks to computer implants that go into the eyes and ears. The implants are either permanent or removable. They allow direct interface with computers, communications and Internet-based applications. The implants are also capable of recording what the user sees and hears. Computer implants designed for direct connection to the brain are also available. They are capable of augmenting natural senses and of enhancing higher brain functions like memory, learning speed and overall intelligence. Computers are now capable of learning and creating new knowledge entirely on their own and with no human help. By scanning the enormous content of the Internet, some computers "know" literally every single piece of public information (every scientific discovery, every book and movie, every public statement, etc.) generated by human beings. Direct brain implants allow users to enter full-immersion virtual reality--with complete sensory stimulation--without any external equipment. People can have their minds in a totally different place at any moment. This technology is in widespread use. Most communication occurs between humans and machines as opposed to human-to-human. The manufacturing, agricultural and transportation sectors of the economy are almost entirely automated and employ very few humans. Across the world, poverty, war and disease are almost nonexistent thanks to technology alleviating want. The rise of Artificial Intelligence creates a real "robot rights" movement, and there is open, public debate over what sorts of civil rights and legal protections machines should have. The existence of humans with heavy levels of cybernetic augmentation and of larger numbers of other people with less extreme cybernetic implants lead to further arguments over what constitutes a "human being." Although computers routinely pass the Turing Test, controversy still persists over whether machines are as intelligent as humans in all areas. Artificial Intelligences claim to be conscious and openly petition for recognition of the fact. Most people admit and accept this new truth. Reverse engineering of the human brain completed Non-biological intelligence combines the subtlety and pattern recognition strength of human intelligence, with the speed, memory, and knowledge sharing of machine intelligence Non-biological intelligence will continue to grow exponentially whereas biological intelligence is effectively fixed 2049 Food is commonly "assembled" by nanomachines. This food is externally indistinguishable from "natural" food, but can be made much healthier since production can be controlled at the molecular level. This technology decouples food production from climate conditions and the availability of natural resources. [An implication of this is that meat production will no longer require the slaughter of animals.] The distinction between virtual reality and "real" reality becomes confounded as foglets come into common use, allowing immediate assembly or disassembly of all sorts of physical objects. 2072 Picoengineering (technology on the scale of trillionths of a meter) becomes practical. 2099 The human brain has been completely reverse engineered and all aspects of its functioning are understood. Natural human thinking possesses no advantages over computer minds. Machines have attained equal legal status with humans. Humans and machines merge together in the physical and mental realms. Cybernetic brain implants enable humans to fuse their minds with A.I.s. In consequence, clear distinctions between humans and machines no longer exist. Most conscious beings lack a permanent physical form. The world is overwhelmingly populated by A.I.s that exist entirely as thinking computer programs capable of instantly moving from one computer to another across the Internet (or whatever equivalent exists in 2099). These computer-based beings are capable of manifesting themselves at will in the physical world by creating or taking over robotic bodies, with individual A.I.s also being capable of controlling multiple bodies at once. Individual beings merge and separate constantly, making it impossible to determine how many “people” there are on Earth. This new plasticity of consciousness and ability for beings to join minds seriously alters the nature of self-identity. The majority of interpersonal interactions occur in virtual environments. Actually having two people physically meet in the real world to have a conversation or transact business without any technological interference is very rare. Organic human beings are a small minority of the intelligent life forms on Earth. Even among the remaining Homo sapiens, the use of computerized implants that heavily augment normal abilities is ubiquitous and accepted as normal. The small fraction of humans who opt to remain "natural" and unmodified effectively exist on a different plane of consciousness from everyone else, and thus find it impossible to fully interact with A.I.s and highly modified humans. "Natural" humans are protected from extermination. In spite of their shortcomings and frailties, humans are respected by A.I.s for giving rise to the machines. Since knowledge and skills can be instantly downloaded and comprehended by most intelligent beings, the process of learning is compressed into an instantaneous affair instead of the years-long struggle normal humans experience. Free from this time-consuming burden, A.I.s now focus their energies on making new discoveries and contributions. A.I.s are capable of dividing their attention and energies in countless directions, allowing one being to manage a multitude of endeavors simultaneously. Femtoengineering (engineering on the scale of one thousandth of a trillionth of a meter) might be possible. A.I.s communicate via a shared electronic language. Artwork and music created by machines encompasses areas of the light spectrum and frequencies of sounds that normal humans cannot perceive. Money has deflated in value. Some humans at least as old as the Baby Boomers are still alive and well. Computer viruses are a major threat since most intelligent beings are software-based. A.I.s frequently make "backup copies" of themselves, guaranteeing a sort of immortality should the original A.I. be killed. The concept of "life expectancy" has become irrelevant to humans and machines thanks to medical immortality and advanced computers. The pace of technological change continues to accelerate as the 22nd century nears. Thousands of years from now "Intelligent beings consider the fate of the Universe." Presumably, this means that the A.I.s created by humans will have the ability to control the entire Universe, perhaps keeping it from dying.