complicated breeding question

Discussion in 'Cannabis Breeding' started by shortyottomatix, Apr 30, 2004.

  1. Lemme see if I've got this right.

    p1= This is like the "pure true" stabilized seed. Northern Lights is p1.

    f1= This is what happens if you cross a p1 with a p1. Like Northern Lights X Northern Lights.

    f2= f1 X p1. Like Northern LightsxNorthern Lights X Northern Lights.

    And it goes so on a so forth. By the time you get to an f5 it's just a p1 that's been crossed with itself enough to stablize.

    Assuming that all of this is correct, here's where my questions come into play.

    If a f5 hybrid is just a p1 crossed with itself it essentially becomes stabilized genetically. When it becomes stablized as an f5 it's pretty much just a p1 right? I guess what I'm trying to ask, is that backcrossed hybrids become p1 strains once they've stabilized enough, right?

    An f1 hybrid does not have to be like NL X NL does it? An f1 could be oh say NL X Haze. And that would make an f1 hybrid as well right?

    Now lets say I cross NL X Haze, I've got that f1 going on. It's no where near stabilized, theese are the strands that display the most hybrid vigour right?

    So is a f1 a better seed to buy than a p1 or a stabilized f5? I would assume so just because of the hybrid vigour.


    Ok now lets say I've got my NL X Haze f1 cross and it's pimpin'. I mean I'm loving my results. I picked a favorite clone mother and I've been cloning and producing great bud. I just love this f1 or whatever.......... but I get bored with it.

    Since I got bored with it I decided to throw in some lowryder because of it's fast finishing time and low profile. But I want to keep a lot of the NL X Haze genetics, because I want a plant I can clone.

    Say I get a lowryder male and pollinate one of my female NL X Haze f1 clones. Does this make the new Lowryder X Northern Lightsxhaze a completely new f1 hybrid?

    If it does make a new f1 hybrid, I'm assuming that f1 get half their genetics from the mother and half from the father. So the plant would be essentially half lowryder and a quarter northern lights and a qaurter haze right?

    Ok so I have the baddest f1 hybrid in town now, my nlxhaze X lowryder strain is just the shit and I decide I want to try to stabilized my f1 into something where the results don't vary as much.....

    What do I do now, just plant some of my f1 lowryder X nlxhaze plants and wait for a male, then take the male and pollinate a female making an f2? And then cotinue doing imbreeding and backcrossing untill I get a stablized f5?


    Sorry for all these complicated questions. I'm just having trouble finding answers or understanding the answers I'm finding. If anybody could just brief me a little of breeding, or hell even drop some good links, I'd appericate it a lot. I'm stoned outta my gord and my mind won't stop racing. Thanks -0tto
  2. Wow I can really babble when I'm stoned. Maybee that's why I don't have any friends, or maybee it's because I stabbed them all :D lmao.

    Anyways, underneath all of that babble (that's really hard to understand) my basic questions are:

    What exactly are f1, f2, f3, f4, f5, and p1 plants?

    How do the genetics divided in the separate categories. (Ex: A f1 hyrbid gets 50 percent of it's genetics from it's mother and 50 percent of it's genetics from it's father, etc...)

    Is backcrossing essentially the same thing as imbreeding to stabilize?

    And if anybody can make sense of the other stuff and wants to try to answer, that would be greatly appericated too. And I realize that this will be a long somewhat tedious post to answer, so if anybody just wants to drop a link to something that explains, that would be greatly appericated to. I've just been having trouble finding anything. Thanks -0tto
  3. from what i understand, and f1 is more stable than a p1, and the higher the generation (like f2,f3,f4,f5) they wither get less stable or they dont have the same vigor.... too stoned to grasp the thought at the moment...

    as for the links ill loook around.... :)
  4. ................I've been racking my brain looking for information and trying to think..... thinking sucks but...........

    In my searching I found a cool post by blazin420 where froggy really shed some like on this situation. Check out this link...

    What that link and froggy were basically saying is that an f1 is the hybrid with the most vigour. f2's and down are imbreed and loose some of their vigour.

    This still does nothing about the gentics of the whole thing for me. I'd like to know what percentage of a plants genes come from where etc.... And I'm like to know if p1s are truly just imbreed stabilized f somethings.

    I get that untill no set terms are set, what I may think is a f3 you may think is an f2 etc etc etc.... I'd really just like to know about genetics and in particular p1's.

    Thanks for any help guys.

  5. Yeah, I think that's the way you stabilize it, but anyways, if you want to know more about breeding &stuff, you should read "Marijuana Botany", by Robert Conell Clarke... you can find it on the net or at most bookstores like "Borders" or "Hastings".... in the US, that is...
  6. oy.

    ok what u are looking for is genetics 501.
    u need physics, statistics, calc and alot of math, and a crapper load of biology before u can get into genetics 501. my suggestion is to get in good with one of the asian ladies in the front row. they are smart, cute and know their stuff.
    anyhow, assuming that u arnt gonna start that class anytime soon, let me see if i cannot figure out what u want.

    firstly, i hated genetics. seemed like after all that calculations and such...its still random dumb luck and good observance. oh yea and alot of bean plants :)

    ok let me try this out...

    p1 is the parent

    f1 is seed from a mom and a dad from diff blood lines WW x BB, (if they were from the same blood line, they wouldnt be an f1, they would be a p1)

    f2 = f1 that grew out and produced seeds with a brother and a sister sex. those seeds are f2's

    f3, etc are the same as f2, but further inbred and maybe (or maybe not_) further from the parental lineage.

    i think this is really what u wanna know.

    lets pretend u buy white widow and blueberry from someone that says they are f1.

    this means that the seeds that u have are from a specific genetic line that produces a uniform result of phenotype. a good breeder can make this very uniform. uniform means that the f1 seeds that they produced from p1's are simular in growing out phenotypes. meaning that all the f1's will be pretty much the same because the phenotypes are dominate and continued to be expressed.

    so why does inbreeding (f2,3,4...'s ) start to lose vigor? well they dont necessarily lose vigor, but they are not as uniform a production line (or at least its not as uniform as f1's). what happens is that some of the other phenotypes that were recessive in the p1's now have a chance to reproduce with other recessives brought into the gene pool because the kids are inbreding, then becoming expressive. so in other words, u get alot of unknown pheno's being produced. this may be good or this may be bad. but it makes having a uniform product impossiable until u control those unknowns. once u get a uniform production (specific pheno's) u can then have ur own lineage. but this takes alot of knoledge and study to really get good at this.

    typically what a breeder does is this...

    again u have WW and BB. maybe u like the way BB is except u want it to be white in color.

    so u grow out a bunch of BB and WW and have sex (p1 xp1 = f1). out of the 100's seeds and subsiquint plants that grew up, 5% are the white that u are looking for. u then take those plants(f1's), and back cross it with the BB(p1) to try and keep everything the same but the white color. lets pretend that 50% of the backcross (these are still considered f1's in my book because they are known lineage of diff backgrounds but some consider them f2's cuz they are same backgrounds) are white and 50% arnt. u then take the 50% that are white and back cross it again(again f1 in my book but some would call these f3), until u have yet again a uniform lineage of what u want, basically a BB that is white. this may never happen or this might happen alot easier than f4. but lets say at some point, u know that if u have sex with ur f2's and they produce a uniform product, u have then completed ur mission. at this point, u have an f10 but u also have a p1 if its uniform. this is now ur new strain 'shorties white blueberry'

    i hope that didnt confuse u too much
  7. Thanks froggy that was a really good explaination to something very complicated and hard to explain. I appericate your help, and remind me to send some bud from my white rhino at the end of this summer :D

    thanks again
  8. good job froggy !!!

    sure answered some of my questions also.

    once my eyes uncross & the smoke coming outta my ears dies down, gonna reread that.
  9. something that maybe i should add to this after re-reading it.

    all of these are based on UR lineage, u need the rule of relativity.

    someones f7 might be someone elses p1.

    i hope that makes sense.

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