Hi all, just wanted to get some opinions/feedback on a debate a friend and I have. He is thinking of trying a grow. He wants to do a perpetual grow where he clones from his vegging plants a little before putting to flower, and keeps the cycle running that way, eliminating the need for mothers. Personally I have no experience in growing, but told him I would look online and found this forum. Which seems to be full of knowledge. So the question is; If he starts from feminized seed, ensures plants are healthy when cutting the clone, and stress is not a factor, will he continue to get fems from the clones? Is the chance of getting a hermie greater from cloning from a feminized plant? From what I understand, a clone is a clone is a clone. If it came from a female, it will be a female. Is this correct? He feels he will end up with a ton of hermies after a few cycles.
Should be no greater chance of getting a hermie from cloning a female from a feminized seed than from cloning a female from a "regular" seed.
"should" i disagree...feminized seeds will produce a higher percentage of hermie plants. It is a fact. A clone will have the same genetic make-up as it's mother...therefore, a clone taken from a feminized seed mother will have a better chance of being hermie than a clone taken from a reg seed mother. Now, if you clone both, then put the clone into flower, there is a chance that the fem clone doesn't hermie and the reg clone does...but the chances are much higher that the fem bean clone will hermie. Obviously this is comparing apples and apples. I will not buy beans that were made from plants that hermied...i don't care what anyone says, the percentages go up big time!!
"A clone will have the same genetic make-up as it's mother...therefore, a clone taken from a feminized seed mother will have a better chance of being hermie than a clone taken from a reg seed mother" I dont understand this, If it has the same genetic make up as the mother, it will be a female. Is there something down the line of cloning clones that orginated from a female that changes?
The idea i thought was to clone the plant and note which clones came from which plant, when the mother plants show preflowers you will know whichs plants and clones to pull? Thats what i thought, also read that you dont need any rooting solution, they will root fine if u cut them at an angle and keep them at high humidity??
The clone of the feminized plant is a true copy of the mother. This would mean it has a hermaphroditic gene just like the feminized mother, but it does not necessarily mean it becomes dominant. The resulting clones should not show male flowers unless stressed similar to the mother plant of the original feminized plant. When grown in a normal healthy environment these clones should perform just like the donor mother for many generations.
tell me what mother plant(means multiple cuttings will be taken from her) will not be stressed by chopping 12 brances off of her. Answer, they all would be stressed...non-fem and fem genes alike, but which seed has the strength and genetic make-up to deal with the stress better without producing hermie offspring...and i would argue that when cloning, the cutting is VERY stressed and even if the mother has shown no signs of hermie, clones can hermie. If there is a short way to explain it. I would say that feminized genetics are less stable when it comes to hermaphroditism...seeds...cuttings...doesnt matter. Like you said pointswest, the hermie gene is bred in and with minimal stress and sometimes you can grow perfect and they still hermie. Dutch passion FEM In an experiment done in 1999 we grew 15 varieties of "feminized" seeds. We started with 30 seeds per variety. The goals were: 1) to determine the percentages of female, male, and hermaphroditic plants. 2) to compare the uniformity (homogeneity) among plants from "feminized" seeds with those grown from "regular" seeds. 1. The results were excellent. Nine out of fifteen varieties had 100% female offspring. Percentages of female plants from the other 6 varieties were between 80 and 90%. These plants were all hermaphrodites, producing their male flowers at the end of their lifecycle. Seed-setting hardly took place. No males were found. Sold in packs of 10. How can we even debate this when the breeder themselves is getting so many complaints that they are putting out a disclaimer on their seeds. GROW RESPONSIBLY OR DON'T GROW AT ALL imho!@!!!
Horse hockey. Creating a feminized seed does not change the genetic make-up of the mother or of the feminized pollen, so there is no "hermaphroditic gene" turned on. And the source for the "fact" that femmed seeds turn hermie is a quotation that's 12 years old? Breeders have come light-years in feminizing since then. There really needs to be two different discussions of feminized seeds. In general, the feminizing process can increase the chances of hermies in the offspring. But when you talk about feminized seeds sold be reputable breeders then the story is very, very different. These breeders spend a lot of time and effort to stabilize those lines and sell only the ones that they successfully stabilize. I have been growing femmed from reputable breeders for years and have never had a hermie or a male from a femmed seed. And I'm not a particularly lucky guy, so there's no way I've had that experience purely by chance.
Reputable breeders??? this leaves alot to be questioned. Seems to me, the most respectable breeders do not even make femmed beans. Ex. Mr.Nice
Here is a partial list of breeders that produce femmed seeds. None of these are reputable or respectable? Ace Advanced Barney's Big Buddha Buddha Delicious DNA Genetics Doggie's Nuts Dutch Passion Female Seeds Flying Dutchmen G13 Labs Greenhouse Homegrown Fantaseeds Lowryder Medical Nirvana Paradise Pick & Mix Positronics Pyramid Royal Dutch Royal Queen Reserva Privada Sagarmatha Sativa Seeds Seedism Seedsman Sensi Serious Short Stuff Soma Sweet Seeds TH Seeds White Label World of Seeds
I'm not trying to argue or criticize any breeders...they must supply the demand. IMO feminized seeds are genetically compromised. How much they are compromised is up for debate. With numerous variables needing to be accounted for, it is very hard to determine hermaphrodite probability, but imho feminized seeds are not necessary, and have a negative impact on maintaining consistent quality genetics.
Don't stress them and they might not hermie. Good fem. seeds don't hermie unless you suck at growing. I don't use them for other reasons, but fem seeds work just fine. Dad has been running White Widow feminized the last two grows with zero herms. Explain that? Just cause you have a bug up your ass about them don't mean they aren't any good for others.
You're dodging the question. You said: I provided a partial list of about three dozen breeders who do make femmed seeds. You made the claim, so the question still stands: do you think that none of these are reputable or respectable? The reality is, contrary to what you said, reputable/respectable breeders are in fact selling feminized seeds. You can have your opinion about why they do it, but you cannot deny that they do it. Again, I've never had a hermie or male from a femmed seed from a reputable breeder. Only two possible explanations: luck of the draw, or the breeders know what they are doing and stabilize their femmed seeds. And I'm not especially lucky, certainly not lucky enough to flip a coin and get only heads hundreds of times in a row...
At least 1/2 of that list I would consider respectable and reputable breeders. it is to supply the demand. If you sat down with the breeders and the real growers, they will tell you the same thing I am...reg beans are more stable and produce less hermies.
You are contradicting yourself. Arguing a different point doesn't change the fact that you made a claim, it is shown to be wrong, and now you have changed it as if it didn't matter in the first place. Very simply, if breeders sold femmed seeds that turned hermie significantly more than regular seeds, they would get complaints, returns, they would lose money on the deal, and they would stop selling them. Breeders are working to supply the demand because the demand for feminized seeds is there, not the demand for hermie seeds. So you are right about supply and demand, and that argument is stronger proof that they do stabilize the lines before they sell them, rather than proof that they are producing unstable seeds to get today's sale at the expense of their long-term reputation and customer base. They approach the production of femmed seeds the way any smart business does -- by meeting customer expectations on claims of quality, not by selling inferior products that will ruin their reputation.
twist my words however you please...my proof that they are unstable is that i am sick and tired of going to different dispensaries(multiple dispensaries in michigan) and see hermie bud being sold for 20$ a gram, which means that many people are having problems with them. I have also had significant experience with reg and fem seeds...i said the most respectable dont make them, and then i said about 1/2 that list are respectable. Did i say they were some of the most respectable?? no. you are trying to twist my words and im not sure why...i am done here.