I've asked several Christians about this verse, even my mother who is extremely religious, and none of them have been able to justify this verse. It is one of the verses I refer to when asked for fucked up things in the Bible. And this is just one ... It's not the genocide that bothers me, because that's all over the Bible (though that itself is reprehensible), it's the raping of little girls. Don't believe me? Read for yourself. Numbers 31:17-21 "17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. 19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day. 20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats' hair, and all things made of wood. 21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses ..."
The Midianites inhabited the land of Moab and were instrumental in seducing Israel into going after false gods. Because the Israelites fell into idolatry this way, God told Moses to order the deaths of all who had bowed to the false gods in that land. God later instructs the Israelites to deal harshly with the Midianites: Later, when Moses meets the returning Israeli army he was angry because he saw the Medianite survivors. The Midianite women, he said, should have died because they were directly culpable in Israel’s sin at Baal of Peor. All the women except the virgins were then sentenced to death along with all the boys. This insured the extermination of the Midianites and thus prevented them from ever again seducing Israel to sin....The virgins were spared because they obviously had had no role in the Baal of Peor incident nor could they by themselves perpetuate the Midianite peoples." Some may object that the Israelites then married the virgins, the daughters of those whom they had killed and that this would be a horrible thing for the virgins. Perhaps it was a horrible thing for them. But, their lives were spared. Also, in that culture at that time, warfare and plunder was a necessary evil. The reality of taking women as wives was unfortunate but true. We must understand that God dealt very harshly because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Satan, in his perpetual effort to oppose God, sought to have the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people, to destroy the messianic line and make not only the promises of God null and void, but destroy means by which the Messiah could be born. If this could be accomplished, then none would have any hope of deliverance from sin. Therefore, we see in the Old Testament God being very harsh and strict according to the Law. Why were only the virgins left alive among the Midianites? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry But lol @ interrogating your mom over it
She didn't believe me until I showed her then she was at a loss for words. She give me an answer for it. And I'm aware that the Israelites committed genocide throughout the Bible. I just don't see how anyone can justify their God instructing men to rape little girls as a punishment for the sins of their slaughtered fathers.
I like how people can recognize that religion gets shaped to fit the current culture and time. The tiny fact that it isn't steadfast should be a red flag to anyone with common sense..
Uh, did you not read Cursed Assassin's response, OP? Realize it was also looked at as a good thing back then... to spare the life of the virgins. One of His promise's is to populate the earth. And it's not necessarily "little girls." Marriages would occur when females were 12 years old or even YOUNGER back then.
"My people did bad things in the past, but during that time it was justified and a good thing! We've moved on from that in this day and age, but anyone today who acts like how we did back then are going to suffer in hell."
1. I'm sure some of them would rather die than be raped by the people who killed their family and entire civilization. 2. I was pressing Assassin on the fact that God ordered this. This isn't the Israelites acting on their own culture, this is God saying to take the little girls and take them for yourselves. I mean, are you saying your God has to resort to necessary evils? 3. It says "all the women children," which is obviously referring to all the little girls. It even says kill the little boys. But keep the little girls for yourselves (notice it doesn't say for their benefit). Also, if a girl hadn't known a man, she would have to be extremely young (as you said, girls married quite early in those days). It is sex slavery and culture or times shouldn't excuse a God who is supposed to be timeless.
QUOTE: "We must understand that God dealt very harshly because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Satan, in his perpetual effort to oppose God, sought to have the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people, to destroy the messianic line and make not only the promises of God null and void, but destroy means by which the Messiah could be born. If this could be accomplished, then none would have any hope of deliverance from sin. Therefore, we see in the Old Testament God being very harsh and strict according to the Law."
That quote is from an apologist website and it dances around the moral issue here (which is what I'm referring to). My question is how can you believe in a God who could justify such evil actions. This is ignoring the culture and time. The idea that God told the Israelites to carry out genocide so that the other cultures wouldn't marry, and then told them to rape the girls of that very culture, doesn't make any fucking sense. He instructed them to intermarry. And why would God need to send the Messiah only through Jews? Sounds racist. Why did he need them to commit genocide and rape little girls, again?
Perhaps you need to sharpen up your reading comprehension skills. Numbers 31:17-18 "17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
[quote name='"rollinjoints"'] Perhaps you need to sharpen up your reading comprehension skills. Numbers 31:17-18 "17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."[/quote] Keep alive for yourselves doesn't equal raping them when they're children. Maybe god meant that they needed to take those girls and teach them their godly ways
Why did he need to kill the little boys and non-virgin women, then? Why couldn't they simply teach them all their "godly ways."
The non virgins were killed because they helped populate whatever people god didn't like. The little boys were killed so they couldn't rise up against their captors and repopulate the world with those people
It could mean different things, rape is not what comes to mind for me. It makes more sense to interpret it as accepting them a part of their society.
Forced marriage is what comes to mind to me. Which equals rape. Even Thomas Paine referred to this in his book Age of Reason. I don't think I've ever heard another interpretation, even by Christian leaders.
I'm just saying when I read that passage the first thing that came to mind wasn't rape. Back in those days people were pregnant by 13 anyway you died when you were 30 so that's practically middle age
Sorry, but that's pretty dumb to say. As the race matures, so does its morals and ideals. Are we going to put up the work of 17th century scientists as the final word as well? Of course not, we build on it.
[quote name='"d1ng1zx2"'] Sorry, but that's pretty dumb to say. As the race matures, so does its morals and ideals. Btw, I heard Science is progressing as well, does that mean we should curse it too?[/quote] Science has always equaled change and acceptance of said change. Religion shuns and punishes anything that goes against their doctrine