CFL vs HPS

Discussion in 'First Time Marijuana Growers' started by TSoaDK, Dec 12, 2008.

  1. From what I understand HPS lighting is the better of the two but produces more heat which require cooling tubes.

    Now with CFL I understand my yield will not be as high but the plant will grow. The CFL's are cheaper but do they need a ballast to run like the HPS's do?
     
  2. HPS only requires a cooling tube depending on your grow space, but yes, will create heat.

    CFL's ballast's are built in, usually at the base of the bulb, you know those curly bulbs people have been replacing their old bulbs with to save energy? Thats a CFL.
     



  3. Depends on the CFL ....some just screw right in a normal light fixture and have there own self contained ballasts in the base of the bulbs ....while others need a special fixture that contains the balast....just do a google and read the descriptions on the cfls....you can also take a look at the one i built for my grow..... just follow my link .......i built a 364 actual cfl watt light for my grow that only costs $44 to construct without the bulbs.....good luck
     
  4. I am wondering if I can get away with using some cheap CFL lighting fixtures with the appropriate lumen's for each plant without installing ventilation fans in my closet...

    there is a pretty big gap underneath the door of my closet and if i add oscillating fans to blow on the plants wouldn't the air be fresh enough to allow growth?
     
  5. You still need ventillation because the plants need fresh CO2 to breathe. An oscillating fan will just move stale, depleted air around.
     
  6. Okay, learned a little more about setting up my closet and know that HPS creates more to harvest than CFL if you can actually get the HPS, but how much more does HPS get? Is it a substantial amount and would just double the watts of CFL lighting generate just as much as a HPS?
     
  7. you cant look at it like that. Its all about the lumens, lower wattage HPS bulbs give off more lumens than CFL bulbs. a 50w cfl bulb gives off more than a 105w CFL. But don't think about it in terms of how much bud your going to get, this all goes back to "Don't count your chicks before they hatch" the only reason why HPS and MH bulbs get bigger bud, is because they have the right areas of the light spectrum in greater proportions than the CFL lights.

    Growers (apparently) had been using fluros for years before the introduction of HID lighting. and if the did it just fine, you probably can to.
     
  8. I want to go with the best I can....it seems to make sense to me to get one kit for 275 that has everything including MH bulb, HPS bulb, and the ballast with reflector to run both instead of setting up 8-12 smaller lights...
     
  9. then go with that. The only reason why I am using CFL's is because of extremely limited space.
     
  10. how small of a space are you using?? I mean I am growing in a closet which doesnt give me a ton of room but it would seem to me like using one 400 watt reflector with the HPS and CMH bulbs would save more space than having 8-12 CFl's in there....???
     
  11. #11 Gizmoe, Dec 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2008



    Lighting isn't the only factor in determining yield unfortunately..... but yes HID lighting should yield more if used correctly under the exact same conditions as CFLs. As for how much more that is totally strain dependent and only a test under ideal conditions using the exact same methods in each grow can actually give you an amount......ppl can guess all day but until they or you have set up identical grows using a carefully controlled experiment .... put a value or number to your question....good luck
     
  12. #12 mad4reef, Dec 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2008

    It's not about watts. It's about lumens. Lumens are the only true measurement that growers should be concerned about. Let's just take this example.

    If we look at watts, it would take ~18 23 watt CFLs to equal one 400 W HID (just in watts). Each 23 watt bulb puts off approximately 1,200 lumens of light. So, if we take 18 (the number of CFLs) and multiply that by 1,200 (the average lumen output of each bulb) we get 21,600 total lumens. Sounds like a lot until you compare that to the average lumen output of a 400 watt HPS or MH, which is around 50,000 - 55,000 and you can see where the true benefit of HID comes in. You are more than doubling your total lumen output. This, in theory would double your yield. Obviously there are lots of other factors to be considered, but this is a rough estimate.

    So, not only are you benefiting from the ease of hanging one bulb, but you are also benefiting from more total lumen output per watt and better light penetration.

    Hope this helps.
     
  13. #13 Gizmoe, Dec 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2008


    Out of that 55,000 you are using you lose a larger % than do with using CFLs because of the required distance from the cannopy so its not as lopsided as you are showing ......i argued the same thing to a friend who was happy to show me a light meter using your same methodology and i was suprised to see that you only lost about 5 to 10% of your output at 4 to 6inches with the CFLs and at the height of 20" with the HID you lose 30 to 35% of its intensity( obviously you cant hang HIDs to close they burn unlike CFLs).....never the less the net result is more total output from the HIDs
     
  14. That's an excellent point. And you are right, I did not factor that into my calculations and I should have.

    I personally only have to keep my lights about 12" above my plants, so I am not sure if I am losing 35%. I would have to get a light meter to measure this number. But, I would still agree with say 20-25%. So, if I deduct 25% of 55,000 lumens, I am still left with approximately 40,000 lumens. Which is still pretty close to double the lumen output of the 18 CFLs. This still illustrates my original point that as growers we should be less concerned about watts and more concerned about lumens (or lumens per watt). In that battle, HIDs win hands down.

    Thanks again for pointing that out. The next time I try to illustrate this point I will definately take that into consideration.
     
  15. #16 Bubble_Bubble, Dec 13, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2008
    I was originally going to be building in a pc case, but I decided today to upgrade, and bought a $5 plastic tub, its got about 4x the volume of my pc case, and I can hang 2 extra lamps (when I get paid next), so all together I will be running 3 150w cfl's and 1 65w cfl (thats 8,200 lumens x3, + 3,400 lumens = 27,800 lumens) this is all for one plant at a time (and leave the rest of the space for 1-2 clones), I plan to scrog also.


    edit: scratch what I said about my lights, need less lumens. after reading "the best stealth lighting system?" I found that the most I want is about 12,000 lumens. after 7500 lumens/sqft the plant doesnt do as well.
     
  16. Light diminishes in intensity (lumens) in an inverse geometric proportion to the distance from the source. so Intensity = lumens/Distance squared. That is the physics of it.

    So if you have a 50k lumen HPS light at 1 meter, it will have 12.5k lumens at 2 meters. And about 5.5k lumens at 3 meters distance from the bulb. And 3.125k lumens at 4 meters.

    And a 8k lumen CFL light bulb at 1 meter will have 2k lumens at 2 meters, 0.9K lumens at 3 meters, and 0.5K lumens at 4 meters.

    What this shows you is that the more powerful the source, the "deeper" the growing zone. The growing zone is the area between where the leaves burn or get stressed, and the point where the light is too weak to make plants grow. So a HPS globe will be able to grow plants effectively (thick juicy bud) in about a two foot depth, starting about 18 inches from the bulb. Closer and it will burn, and stress the plant, further and you get elongated buds. A CFL bulb will allow you to grow the same density of bud in about a one foot range, starting 4 inches from the bulb and going out to 16 inches. Any closure and you shade the plant, any further and the light is too weak to grow really thick monster bud.

    This also explains why sunlight is so much better than indoor, in terms of overall yeild per plant, but also why the main buds are not as tight and mad as indoor. The sun is very very far away (d = the national debt) from the top of a six foot plant, and it is still about the same (d = the national debt plus 1 dollar) at the bottom of a six foot plant. So the intensity doesn't change very much at all. So out door plants can grow thick bud from the top to the bottom, but NOT AS THICK as the killer grow zone for indoor. Because it is difficult to get a lot closer to the sun. You'd need a rocket, and a pretty advanced grow room, to get the same sort of outdoor intensity of bud growth as you can get indoor by moving the light right up close to the plant, on the threshold of burning it.

    Now for the indoor grower, what this means is you really need to set up you plants to take advantage of your bulbs. Because CFL has a shorter killer bud zone compared to HPS bulbs, you want to use sea of green, and grow every cubic inch of that one foot depth. With HPS, you can get two feet of good depth, making the cubic volume of bud much larger. EXCEPT... it is much harder to stop your buds casting shadows over the bottom foot. but for sure, when you look at plants grown under these lights, you can see how CFL has great buds at the top that quickly and suddenly turn into weak thin buds only a little way down the stalk. Just so, HPS gives you longer buds, and generally much taller plants, but you will still see the spindly, weak, thin buds down the bottom of the lower branches.

    This is also why the very biggest buds, the meanest of the mean, the grand daddy stomping buds, are always grown with 1000wt MH bulbs. You just can't get buds that thick, that long, with smaller lights sources.

    Now I have never grown with CFL, because back in the day when i was active, HPS was just too good compared to fluros of the time. And also, where i lived had laws that applied per plant, so SOG growing was not an option. With CFL, you totally need SOG, or this funky ScrOG method folks talk about.

    But I think it is an open question about total yeild, for a few reasons. First, and most important, I wouldn't know cause I haven't tried CFLs. But even in theory, there are reasons why a good ScrOG operator might do better than a so so HPS operator. For a start, it is hard to use all the space with HPS because buds at the top tend to shade buds further down, even if you use SOG or ScrOG. That is just the way it is. If you have bud on top, it shades the bud underneath.

    Second, CFl can be stuck all over the grow box, pointing in from the sides, hanging in the middle of plants and all sorts of crazy close range saturation. And because you use less space, maybe you can stack shelves of CFL on top of each other, doubling the size of your grow area. I know guys in Holland who say this makes all the difference. But they have other reasons, too. They hate trimming, and so they like hundreds of short, neat, uniform buds that can be harvested and packaged real neat and macdonalds style. They spend less time training these SOG trays, because short plants don't increase in height as much as tall plants. So it works for them. Now I always liked showing off stomping big buds from really healthy plants, because I had my hydro down and better light management than my peers, so I always liked growing trophy bud. Vain, I guess. But it is easier to sell trophy bud, if that is your game. Big juicy bud flies out the door, whereas if you buy weed in Amsterdam it is nearly always OK looking bud, but nothing crazy. That is because they are all SOG fanatics up there.

    If I grow again, it will be CFL SOG, because I have matured as a person, I'm curious, and also because there is less risk of fire, and I can put it in a cupboard instead of having a dedicated room. And I am not growing commercial no more, so a little cupboard suits me.

    But I will miss harvesting big stomping buds, for sure. They are one of lifes joys.
     

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