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Cannabis Black Pepper.

Discussion in 'Medical Marijuana Usage and Applications' started by Honokiol, Feb 14, 2014.

  1. #1 Honokiol, Feb 14, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2014
    As I was starting to look around for something to help a friend I found this about an interaction between Cannabis and Black Pepper.  More accurately Black Pepper inhibits the stuff that breaks cannabinoids down making it take longer for you to come down from your dose.  I've been looking for this for my own reasons for about a month now but didn't know how to write the question.
     
    Characterization of tunable piperidine and piperazine carbamates as inhibitors of endocannabinoid hydrolases
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2828288/?report=classic
     
    The upshot is that the alkaloids in black pepper can inhibit the destruction of cannabinoids once they are in the receptor.  While they are manipulating the alkaloids for optimum effect in the above report, the natural potential for the process has been known about in Ayurveda since ancient times.  In particular if you wish to read more look at the known reaction between Black and Long Pepper when used with Turmeric.  The active compound Curcumin is an inverse agonist at CB-1 and would require the same proteins for breakdown as THC.
     
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=%22Black+Pepper%22+or+%22Long+Pepper%22+%22Turmeric%22
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=%22Curcumin%22+%22Piperine%22
     
    Less pot would get you higher for a longer time if you were fond of black pepper and ate a lot of it.

     
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  2.  
    :hello:  Gold Star for the day! :hello:
     
    If we clog up our CB-2 receptors with β-caryophyllene where does all that nice Δ9-THC end up for the patients who cant do the math?
     
    Bonus question what favorite terpene of ours available in cannabis is also available in cloves?
     
    Anti-Nociceptive and Anti-Inflammatory Activities of Ethanol Extract of Syzygium Aromaticum Flower Bud in Wistar Rats and Mice
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2816534/?report=classic
     
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  3. Ah...too early for this quiz shit! :p
     
    I know CB1 receptors are mostly in the brain, while CB2 is throughout the body, the immune system and GI tract. And beta-caryophyllene is a selective agonist, acting only on CB2. While it binds to CB2 receptors and produces anti-inflammatory and analgesic effects, THC and anandamide will be acting more exclusively on CB1 receptors?
     
    I don't know about what's in cannabis and cloves, besides caryophyllene. Is myrcene present in cloves?
     
    I still have a lot to read about terpenes. Very interesting stuff :smoke:
     
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  4. #5 Honokiol, Feb 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2014
     
    nervous system is the correct answer for CB-1.  You have CB-1 in your skin right where your putting the medicine, in the mussels and adjacent internal structures & organs, every where you have nerves.  Along the dorsal horn in your back.....  You nailed CB-2 pretty well. Like CB-1 is involved in pain management so selectively loading it is not a waste of time.  It is important for the immune system to know about pain so it can go fix the problem.  In things like arthritis the immune system ends up trying to fix something that isn't technically broken but failed to get repaired correctly the last time it was there.  It continues to return to the job site over and over improperly repairing the issue again and again.  Shutting off this channel may be more important than CB-1 in treating pain by sending the signal that turns off inflamation.  Because β-caryophyllene is everywhere your body expects it and uses it as if it belongs there because it does.  Give it and the other diet sourced cannabinoids the status they deserve.  Though our bodies use them directly rather than synthesizing from fat this makes them no less important to health.  No one has said it yet but the major classes of  Endocannabinoids like anandamide are starting to look a little like wrappers around a message.  Anandamide appears to represent a group of related endocannabinoids rather than a single endocannabinoid.  See the link below on DHA, ARA's partner in the nervous system.  β-caryophyllene allows other things to join it in the receptor little bits of stuff peptides I think that modify the message in the envelope like it was an endocannabinoid.  I've not seen any one write about this but when I rub THC-a on with the β-caryophyllene it seems to make the THC-a act like an endocannabinoid too if I get enough THC-a into the mix.  The day after I use it up to +/- 22 hrs. after my regular dose I'll get "runners high" in the mussels I'm working during exercise.  Not something I was accustomed to for most of my life.  It could be in my head but so far I'm 5 for 5 on the things I think are in my head when I find the right research paper.
     
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=%22Eugenol%22+%22Opioid%22
     
    Functional Metabolomics Reveals Novel Active Products in the DHA Metabolome
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3342038/?report=classic
     
    My Dr. takes notes like she is in a continuing eduction class.
    Done working on this one I think.
     
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  5. I didn't know about CB1 involvement in peripheral nerves! Learned something new :D that makes a lot of sense as to why it's so effective for nerve pain.
     
    I appreciate the posts. I'm somewhat knowledgeable about modern medicine, and in A&P and such. But it's very interesting to learn about the pharmacological effects of cannabis too. And I know more people becoming well-versed on the subject is a great help for legalization.
     
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  6. Great info guys thanks.

    Another fun fact is that the terpene shared between cannabis and black pepper, helps ease pains of someone withdrawing from Nicotine.
     
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  7. Thanks for posting!  I went through a time thinking black pepper had no medicinal properties, glad to know that it has them ( what in nature does not?) and that it can work with cannabis intake like omega threes and diet...
     
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  8.  
    in the fall of 1988 I quit cigarettes because they were infringing on my smot poking time.  You guys were answering while I was composing so look at the last answer again, it may make a little more sense now.
     
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  9. So my first experiment putting the pepper in my Bay Run went well enough that last night I ground some up super fine in my Mortar & Pistil so it wouldn't clog the eye dropper I use to get my dose with, and added it to my existing asthma medicine.  Whole pepper in a hash oil infused oil.  I think it works better than I thought it worked.
     
    I'll be AFK for a while.  I think my favorite Cartoon Show is about to start and may be on for a while.
     
    http://forum.grasscity.com/blog/9461/entry-12204-rx-asthmacough-medicine-and-ashtma-treatment/
     
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  10. Guess I'll go drill some 1/8" holes in the pepper shaker. :laughing:
     
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  11. #12 Honokiol, Feb 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2014
    That was interesting, Pink Panther & Goofy both send their warm regards.  Wife took all 3 of us out shopping for a while, good thing she didn't expect me to drive.   Picked up a little hash and some tea, seems to have taken quite a while for the little bit we came home with.  Got a little wobbly and uncoordinated for a while, still am but not so much as earlier.  I think I'm coming up on 5 hrs. since the dose maybe 6. 
     
    I think I'll take my bed time dose a little early tonight so I will have a little better idea of how much to cut the dose by tomorrow morning.
    Thank God tomorrow is a holiday & I don't have to go to work.  I can step the dose down in the morning and if it is still too disruptive step it down again before bed.
     
    Don't drill the wholes yet.  Try some smaller doses until some of the other blades weigh in on if it is working for them too or if I just gave my self a placebo.  Test it out then if it works for you make a trip into costco and get a family sized portion.
     
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  12. #13 Honokiol, Feb 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2014
    So I stepped on my dose roughly 50% this AM. and am still quite happy with it.  It is still a little stronger than it was before I started but not objectionably so.   Good thing the medicine was already between 1/2 and 2/3 gone when I put the pepper in it Saturday night or I wouldn't have had room in the bottle. 
     
    I wish I'd have weighed the pepper so I could make a decent guess about how much to put in my next medicine and provide advice for the rest of the Blades here.  In the dose I took yesterday the taste was about like what I would put on a salad, remembering I like pepper a little more than most average people around me.  If you Blades are trying this at home in an existing medicine grind it to fine dust I think I used a gram or less in about 1/2 bottle of my regular asthma medicine. See link at the end.  Scale things to what you do from there.  Be ready to adjust the dose.  I don't know if mixing it with heat will help but if you are mixing it into a coconut infused oil or other oil that sets up solid you will need to heat it some just to get it to mix in and mix it well as it starts to set up so you don't have it all at the bottom of the jar or use a mixer on it and make a whipped butter kind of stuff so the pepper is n your mouth with the medicine.  Some of the research about Turmeric suggests that tie pepper helps the cannabinoid cross the mucus membrane in the mouth making it more available that way on top of what it does with it at the neuroreceptor.  It was like being kidnapped by two really great friends and being forced to enjoy a really great vacation with them.
     
    My experience was a sharp fast initial peak then a very long slow decay that took the best part of 12 Hrs. to clear.
    It is not yet completely clear that I cut my dose with enough Flax Seed Oil this morning to be comfortable driving today but there is still room in the bottle to cut it a little more before I have to go to work tomorrow.  This is my asthma medicine and except for yesterday I've been taking it 3 times a day like clock work since it got cold enough last fall for my neighbors to be regularly burning wood for heat.  First thing in the AM again when I get home from work and again at bed time.
     
    http://forum.grasscity.com/blog/9461/entry-12204-rx-asthmacough-medicine-and-ashtma-treatment/
     
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  13. Im going to give this a try with my tincture this week. I've noticed when taking Turmeric i get a body buzz and a smile on my face with absolutely nothing in me for at least 8 hrs so I'd say your on to something there.

    I take the turmeric as a tincture as well if that matters
     
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  14. #15 Honokiol, Feb 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2014
     
    The tincture is interesting, I don't know if it matters, Do you make it your self?  How are you using it, in the mouth or as a pain control topical?
     
    Where I can and there is no reason not to I try to get my medicine from whole food.  I get fresh Turmeric root for $4.99/Lb. at the Vietnamese market about a mile from my house.  I started eating it as a replacement for candied Ginger which I love, to get away from all the sugar.  I'm a diabetic & knew I'd been seeing good stuff going by about Turmeric I think I knew it helps with asthma but did not really study it until it started getting me high.  Then I went looking for why it was doing it.  Same with Salal Berries before that and seaweed before that.  It is starting to look and feel like there is a spectrum of action among cannabimimetic compounds rather than the black and white classification the researchers are trying to force everything into.  I can't remember which links I've already shown you but I think the first one will be new and the 2nd two will be old.  I'm putting them up so the blades who have not seen them and are following the thread will be up on what we are talking about. 
     
    For the rest of you this thread is really about dealing with tolerance without taking a traditional "T-Break" which is not an option for me in my asthma treatment and about keeping the cost of medicine down so I can afford my medicine.  Even if you grow your own there are costs involved including time, labor and space.  I know it is a labor of love!
     
    This is intended for patients but I consider those of you who think you are just fans of Cannabis patients too so if this helps you then it's all good.  I think alternating between and among different cannabinoids during the day on a continuing basis reduces tolerance.  Our bodies expect a regular circadian cycle in the cannabinoids we consume.
     
    The dietary polyphenols trans-resveratrol and curcumin selectively bind human CB1 cannabinoid receptors with nanomolar affinities and function as antagonists/inverse agonists.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19359525
     
    Chronic Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol treatment in rhesus monkeys: differential tolerance and cross-tolerance among cannabinoidshttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3051379/?report=classic
     
    Unique agonist-bound cannabinoid CB1 receptor conformations indicate agonist specificity in signaling
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2279194/?report=classic
     
    If you want to understand more study cannabinoid control of metabolism and diet.  The attempt by people interested in using cannabinoid inverse agonists for weight loss runs into the same trouble that Smot Pokers experience.  Tolerance.  The medicine they focus on slowly stops working over time.  Switching back and forth among a group of cannabinoids seems to be preventing this for me and it sounds like our friend Nate is having a similar experience.
     
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=%22Cannabinoid%22+%22Metabolism%22%20or%20%22Diet%22%20or%20%22Weight%20Loss%22
     
    P.S.
    When I went over this with my weight loss Dr. she started charting notes like a house on fire.
     
  15. #16 Nate489, Feb 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2014
    Would using a red/black/white pepper blend be as beneficial opposed to all black?


    FWIW with an eating habit change and cannabis i dropped 50lbs. I started eating 5-6 small meals a day instead of 2 or 3 big. During my transition phase i would get hungry right after eating, getting high settled the hunger pains and made my mind go elsewhere.

    I use herb pharm brand turmeric extract. Its made from organic whole rhizomes and is 1250mg per dropper i believe. I may start making my own soon though.
     
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  16. #17 Honokiol, Feb 17, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 17, 2014
     
    Doc says I'm supposed to eat 6 small meals instead of 3 big ones too.
     
    I don't know yet about the color issue, I would guess it is a mater of ripeness.  I'm asking my self the same question.  All 3 come from the same plant but the chemistry of each could be different in a manner similar to mature flowering pot Vs. juvenile non-flowering pot.  Long Pepper if you ever see it a relative of Black Pepper is known to work in Ayurveda.  If you find the answer before I do I would love to see it.
     
    Is the tincture going in the mouth or onto your body as a pain treatment?
     
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  17. #18 Nate489, Feb 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 18, 2014
    My dad has acupuncture with a lady who is also an herbalist. Ill have him ask her when he sees her next.

    I take the turmeric orally 2-3 times a day and i also have it in a topical i use daily for a lotion. Im not sure the exact strength either, i swore i read 1,250mg somewhere but all i can find is a dry herb ratio of 4:1
     
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  18. What about pepper essential oil? I didnt know it existed until tonight
     
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  19.  
    β-caryophyllene is in there just like it is in Cannabis Scroll up to message 5 and read it.  It will save time and space re-writing the entry here.  It is a favorite Cannabinoid of mine right up there with the classical cannabinoids like THC.
     
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