I think this thread is a little unnecessary. Cannabis is a mind altering drug and induces a state of consciousness different from regular experience - some people flourish influenced by foreign perceptions and others do not. If the point of view you experience is more coherent during cannabis use or sobriety - then it is, it all depends on factors such as surroundings, mind set, genetics (yours and the plant), etc. Scientific evidence isn't necessary for this subjective matter either; are doctors going to tell you "This medicine is guarenteed to work for everyone"? Nope, they'll say "try this, and if it doesn't work - we'll try this" because not all drugs affect people in the same manner. I'll also just throw out there that many great minds smoked cannabis, including Einstein and Sagan.
dang,what a rant,well,thanks for clearing that up,your pretty much saying that those people who say that cannabis helped them do something and they claim it helped the out come of that something,whatever it may be,was all in their head and done all on their own. kinda like if someone says a 4 leaf clover helped them be better at basketball or help them get with some guy or gal or help them get a A+ on the test,yet,the power to do all that was in them all along,how beautiful
Finally, something SCIENTIFIC. Taking notes on the environment is a very important step in coming to a logical conclusion, correct? So, obviously there ARE factors that depict a high, according to you. SCIENTIFIC factors which provide proof. You lost me here. Since when is a doctor a scientist? They normally practice what they're told in med. school, not create their own solutions to problems. That's another discussion. You're right, many great minds have and do smoke weed. Some not-so-bright people on Earth do, also. What is your point? I know some pretty stupid potheads that probably don't even know who either of the above mentioned individuals are. Again, your point? @Princess You're right, that IS my opinion with a little bit of weight to it, huh? It's kind of hard to argue about something that has a bit of truth behind it, rather than a hollow claim, right? Study the techniques of lawyers, and you'll learn that 99.9% of legitimate arguments have a right and a wrong side.
"You lost me here. Since when is a doctor a scientist? They normally practice what they're told in med. school, not create their own solutions to problems. That's another discussion. You're right, many great minds have and do smoke weed. Some not-so-bright people on Earth do, also. What is your point? I know some pretty stupid potheads that probably don't even know who either of the above mentioned individuals are. Again, your point?" Your not seeing my point either, cannabis is a drug like anything else a doctor would prescribe and like-wise will have different results on different people - that is why you do not need some ultimate objective proof that says "Cannabis will make you more creative" because there isn't one, the question to be pondered is "Does cannabis make you more creative?". The practice of medicine is essentially a science, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. You can only deduce that cannabis may or may not make you more creative. With regard to your second response - there's no point in that, notice I said "I'm just going to throw this out there" meaning, I'd like to add that a lot of intelligent and creative people do and did smoke cannabis, which I realize also constitutes that a lot of uncreative and stupid people do and did smoke cannabis, which supports my idea. Different man, different ideas, different results.
First of all, I understand that medicine is science, even science at it's height, in my opinion. What better use for science than the better of mankind? But, one point that I was trying to make is that just because medicine is a science, that does not constitute a doctor being a scientist. I think that's fair enough to say. Second, obviously, cannabis is a drug, and obviously, it will affect everyone in a different way, which was your point. For you to say that those reasons do not require scientific evidence, as you previously stated in post #21, is absurd. Again, back to square 1; how can one make a claim based on subjective evidence, and argue for its truth? What, then, would make that person feel those differences when others don't? Is it a scientific reason, such as genetics, environment, or you fill in the blank? Or, possibly a placebo effect? Maybe the people who feel much more creative during a marijuana high are very closed-minded while sober, and do not observe their environment, too well. This is subjective, but, hell, it's fair game to throw out opinion as fact now, right? I think that maybe some people over-exaggerate the feeling of being high, and, as with all information, word spread, and people began to develop preconceived notions about being high, thus altering their state of mind not only before ingestion, but after, as well. Especially since it's a drug, remember? Again, this is subjective, but do you see the point?
I guess I can't expect people to read my last two posts, as they are pretty lengthy, but I basically explained there that this is precisely not what I was trying to say. All I'm saying is that human beings are profoundly fallible, make lots of type-1 and type-2 errors in reasoning, and make claims, often which are extraordinary and unsupported by anything other than their word, about a drug they take which effects the human brain in the first place. We shouldn't be eagerly taking their word for it, and we should be careful ourselves of making conclusions which are unnecessary, given what we know about psychology. There's the short answer. I'm trying to say in this thread that this is exactly not the case, and that we know that we can very easily be mistaken about things like this, even about ourselves.
I see what your saying. you've yet to see what I'm saying. Why does there have to be some chemical/surrounding that induces creativity? It is the byproduct of being in a foriegn state of mind that allows some to see things from an altered, more creative perception. I've said already that there probably is no objective proof you can find saying it does or doesn't. There's probably some scientific factors you can relate to the level of amplified creativity like the ones I mentioned above, but there is no final evidence that says you will or won't experience increased creativity since it affects all differently. I'd also like to add, you're coming off as a wise-ass. That is no way to have a discussion.
Sure we can. I didn't really want to bring personal experience in this cold and hard scientific discussion you guys are trying to maintain, but I'll add that cannabis has sufficiently expanded my creativity at times. I've written short stories and long/technical classical metal songs that collectively, by me; my friends and family is agreed to be some of my best work. Another example, someone else mentioned earlier, I do frequently have smoke sessions with a couple close friends of mine and debate world events, theorize about the universe, and pratice military strategic force movements. While we may not invent miraculous ideas solving the mystery of the universe or be scientists - our discussions are greatly different while stoned compared to sober. When I say different, I don't necessarily mean creative, but it definitely can lead to ideas you'd probably never come up sober that are pretty great. This is what I've been trying to say the entire time, your mind set is altered, and that may or may not increase your creativity based on the fact that you are simply viewing the world at a different angle.
Lmao, and you bury yourself here. I wasn't being a wise-ass, I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your argument, your logic, your beliefs, and probably your thought process, quite possibly even your morals. I think you would be able to think MUCH more clearly if you fill your head with facts, knowledge, truth; you know, the stuff that human evolution is made of? As you said, you have zero evidence to support your claim other than the personal testimony of several, maybe a dozen others. There is no point in you getting into an argument with someone, and going on and on and on when in the end you wave the white flag. If you truely believed in what you said, and you have any kind of heart, you would fight for what you believe in, or there is no point in believing. As I said, I completely understand what you were saying, even if you don't think I do. I simply don't agree, and stated my reasons and presented my evidence. I'm sorry you don't have the fight in you, nor the evidence to stand up for your beliefs. If you don't have any proof, then what drives you to continue to argue? Edit: Just read that. Dude, do you write songs and play video games? What the hell does this have to do with creativity? Maybe marijuana snaps you out of the Pop. Culture/soda pop high that you're on all day and get you to do some real thinking. Is that what you're sayin', man?
My thinking became "Layered" and still is even after stopped for few days or weeks. Though I do believe I have an answer to a skin condition that I will be testing this summer to see if my "Epiphany" is correct or not. But have had really dumb conclusions to lifes questions while smoking. I think its different everytime you smoke.
You need to calm down, I'm not sure you realize how much of an asshole you sound like. Try having a civilized discussion for once, where you present your side politely. I'm defending my points just fine without insulting you. What the hell proof do you want? My arguement doesn't need "Proof" and if you don't see that by now, you probably don't get it. You're in an altered state of mind. Still with me? Okay, next step, let's wait for the immature children to catch up with the last statement. Now, is your thought process the same, or different during this altered state of mind? Yes, it is different. Okay movin on. Because it's different, will that result in having different concoction of thoughts than usual? Yes it will. Will some of those thoughts be considered more creative than sobrieties concoction of thoughts? Yes, they probably will. Thats literally all I'm saying. What proof do I need to say your thought process is in a foreign state? Have you smoked weed? I actually do "real thinking", I'm majoring in astronomy next year in college, and taking a music and philosophy class. I don't know how this pertains to your objective discussion, but yes I do play videogames, and damn well enjoy it.
Forgot to add, you said "What the hell does writing songs have to do with creativity?" are you even serious at this point? Should I even answer that question?
Kid, I am calm. I'm sober and laying in bed sippin' a warm tea. You're the one who's upset that he made a claim that was quickly shot down, as are many. The only difference is that you can't take it. I asked you multiple times to prove your point or give up, as any sane person would do, but you keep keepin' on with your high-horse attitude. I'm sorry that pre-astronomy taught you nothing of Law, logic, or the art of conversation, but your points were dull, thus useless, and should be thrown out and replaced with something of more sustinance. In philosophy, I'm sure your teacher will inform you of your many flaws in logic, and he'll help explain to you your problem in arguing with no reason. Wait until you get to Logic and have to write a REAL proof. I would love to see how your teacher grades your subjective material. I play video games, too, but I don't consider it, "military strategizing," lmao. COD is not real life, and you don't really rule the world if you win Risk. As for sounding like an asshole, that's your opinion, which again, I don't agree with. Surprise-surprise. I already understand you don't need proof, as I stated in the last 3 posts. YOU seem to be in an altered state of mind. Still with me? I get it. MY point is, your argument is, for lack of a better word, trash when you have no evidence, unless you wanna debate your favorite color. THAT is an argument you may win with no evidence. And, "real thinking," keep it up. It seems to be leading you down a very straight and logical path, and you do a VERY good job at defending your points, as you stated. Toke on. Edit: Yes, wth does writing a "long/technical classic metal song" have to do with creativity, when you probably just chopped up songs you've heard and made them sound mediocre to your modest family and friends? You can say you didn't, but I can say you did, based on songs I've heard by others. Pretty subjective, huh? As for the short stories, I can definintely say that I write 100% better when I'm sober. Obviously there must be some scientific reason for this, right? Edit 2: Don't answer that, I do not wish to carry this pointless conversation any further. We're obviously not going to come to a conclusion which was better than the previous, so there is no point in conversing. Conversations are to convey information and gain knowledge, not argue over He said, She said, which was my point all along. Lol.
You continuously claim I have no evidence for my claim or a sense of logic, but have failed to actually "shoot down" my claim. Nor am I upset at anything, if you review your previous posts you'll find you're the one who is blatantly disoriented. I'm also struggling to find where I said playing videogames was correlated to military strategizing. Since you brought it up, I have a 6' by 3' white board at my house that we use to map out an execution of a force movement through various terrains and circumstances. Again with the evidence, don't need any, I'm utilizing the simple facts that the plant changes the way you think. Actually, if you considered ending your ignorance and thought about what I'm saying, it should make sense. It's completely rational: Drug alters thought process, therefore you think of things differently and in some cases more creatively. Yet you continue to insult me, which i'm not taking personally, because I can tell you're some teenage know it all who thinks he cradles the ultimate wisdom of the universe and is impervious to debate. Instead of bombarding me with a request for evidence that isn't necessary, how about you use your apparently superior scientific rationality to prove that I'm wrong. Prove to me that weed doesn't alter your consciousness, doesn't changes the way you think, and doesn't sometimes induce more creative thoughts.
No actually it isn't some knock off of some other songs that I like at all, that was the point of me mentioning that - it was different, and in my view it was indeed more creative than most of my other work. You don't have to believe me, but acknowledge that writing music is an art, and requires creativity.
I believe it's a hobby and requires much free time. @the previous post SO you're saying that there is science behind why it makes you more creative. RIGHT!? I mean, geez, man. You've been on the border of contradicting yourself so many times, but you stop your post before you do it. And where do you keep getting this idea that I'm not sober? You're a bit silly to think you have special powers. Have you been inhaling concentrated amounts of radiation from Japan, and somehow gained super powers!? Lemme sniff some! And, again with the assuming. What makes you think I'm a teenager? You have to be 18 to use this site, anyway, so either way I would be an adult, which I don't understand the significance of? And impervious to debate? I asked you 20 times to provide evidence to your claim, which you admittedly did not do because you have no evidence, correct? Well, in debate class, your team loses 100/100. Sorry, but I don't think you have the slightest clue of what you're talking about. You seem to let your emotions get in the way of the facts, which is a very immature thing to do. Maybe you should use your whiteboard to brainstorm some evidence that supports your claim, and start a new thread in the morning. Some sleep will help your adrenaline subside.
yes yes yes,to take someone by their word is not always reliable,they have to back it up with proven facts.It's like what PrincessTHC said,there needs to be more research on it's effects by having studies of the effects on the mind ,using multiple testing models,which would require multiple test subjects,high vs not high,having their brain be hooked up to machines that map out brain activity and all that good stuff.so we can see what claims are fact and what claims are just our own imagination (once again~ running away with me~ oh~ it was Just my imagination~ running away with me~) [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hsYRLlW-c4]YouTube - Just My Imagination (Running Away With Me)[/ame]
I've read everyone's responses. It covered what I was thinking of saying, so here goes this: Life, and the way you experience it, is one giant placebo effect. Intentionally or not, life is exactly what you make it. We are all living in one giant fairytale written by us (!).
It isn't possible that some perceive life exactly as the universe presents it, while others perceive it as how they want it? As usual, just subjective. I think that claims on thie site need to spot being made unless you expect someone to prove you wrong, ESPECIALLY if you are. I'm ont saying your OPINION is wrong, I'm saying that the path some take to arrive at the conclusion is quite flawed, thus their conclusion should be reevaluated before it is begun to be accepted.