Can you prove God exists?

Discussion in 'Religion, Beliefs and Spirituality' started by meddlehaze, Aug 4, 2011.

  1. #1 meddlehaze, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2011
    No, it's difficult to prove anything truly exists let alone a metaphysical "thing" you cannot directly perceive.

    The lack of hard evidence should not deter a sentient being from personally discovering whether or not God exists. It might, however, deter a moral agent from proving His existence to someone else.

    This next part may sound a bit redundant.
    No one can prove God exists except for God Himself (a true entity is not dependent on "us" to prove it's existence), just as no one is able to prove I exist other than myself. I must exist, first, then act upon this in order for my existence to be proven. If you were to tell someone offline that some guy named meddlehaze exists, would they have trust in your claim without hard evidence other than your experiential "proof"? It's quite plausible.

    Now, what would be hard evidence for my own existence or your existence? Would it be my "self" in front of you to personally perceive? Well, none of you readers actually see or perceive me directly. You are merely perceiving the manifestation of my "self" which is typing these very words... a theist might say their holy scripture is the manifestation of this divine being. It's difficult for most humans to accept words from other humans about God as true, but when it comes to history and science those lines are not crossed. Why is this the case?

    I'm not sure if you see where my train of thought is going, but I'm trying to illustrate how it's extremely difficult for a theist to prove God exists. The only true evidence a theist has over an atheist is the universe and even that may be interpreted as weak or fallacious. To me, it's up to God who He reveals Himself to. I used to waste many hours trying to prove this metaphysical Entity exists outside of our reality, yet to no avail. Attempting to prove God exists is entirely futile, instead we can only share the method in which we draw our conclusions about the existence of God and accept or deny them as we please.

    The way I see it is, in order to see God, you must believe in Him first.
    First, you believe then you see.

    Discuss? I may have some fallacious statements riddled within this thread and if I do please address them.

    Much appreciated,
    Meddlehaze
     
  2. #2 Lay Low, Aug 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2011
    I agree for the most part with your post.

    This part in particular I agree with also, but felt like expanding on. Belief is required in the beginning. Without belief no one would start off on the path, but belief itself is simply a catalyst, the initial force that precipitates the finding of real proof. Mere belief in God will never do anything in itself. Initial desire and belief in God must be developed and nurtured with constant spiritual practices and self improvement, those are the things that will ultimately provide unequivocal proof that is more real than anything on this physical plane can ever hope to be. The problem is that most people have some small awakening and belief in God is established, but then no further progress is made on the path. Belief when left alone and not transformed into actual realization leads to blind dogmatism and superstition, and wrong ideas about God.

    This is what Jesus meant by "many will come, but few are chosen".

    The many are those with belief in God, mere intellectual belief only, with no actual perceptions of truth, no actual contact with Spirit. This constitutes a minimum of 99% of all religious and self proclaimed "spiritual" people in the world. The "chosen few" are the very rare group of people who are not content with mere belief, they strive continuously, every day of their lives, they are willing to go to the ends of the earth in their search for God. They strive every day to improve themselves, to expand their consciousness and make every action they perform in accordance with Divine will. Those blessed few are ultimately granted their life long desire of actual contact with God.

    Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, and many many others are examples of real spiritual people, people who truly know God, who can see him at any time they wish and converse with him at will. They are the only ones who have real proof of God, but even they can't give it to others. All people can and will achieve what they did, but it takes many years, or lifetimes, of dedication to the path. The vast majority of people who are living today simply are not at a stage in their evolution where they are even ready to step foot on the path, let alone travel on it to it's destination.
     
  3. This is such a good post dude, Amen!!! +rep

    This part I don't necessarily agree with, but I definitely see your point. All in all, great post
     

  4. Thanks man! I figured you would appreciate it. I wouldn't even have posted it if I thought it would have been lost on you. I rarely talk at any length anymore about spiritual matters because for the most part no good comes from it. People are generally just stuck in their ways, in their notions, for the rest of their lives. If the words of the greatest spiritual masters contained in the various world scriptures is not enough to change them, surely any feeble attempt of mine is just a waste of mine and their time. So if no change occurs, or if no change is even possible, what motive is there to talk about these things? There is none, other than selfish motives, which I will not have any part of. I came to that realization long ago. One of my greatest desires is to change people, to make people realize that their only true and lasting happiness can come through God contact and nothing else, but talking is very ineffective to achieve that. It's a very sad realization that I came to, but it's a true one, the only thing I can do is strive to improve myself, perfect myself, and then maybe one day when I have advanced enough I can inspire others simply by example. The only thing we can do is what Gandhi suggested,

    "Be the change you want to see the world."

    I know we probably disagree on some points, probably concerning Jesus :D, but I also know that those differences are only superficial and of no real importance. I have no religious affiliation anyways, almost all of my beliefs are Hindu, but I don't consider another Hindu to be my spiritual brother or sister. Religious affiliation doesn't matter, only the heart of the practitioner, of whatever religion they may belong to. Those who love God, whether they call God Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, enlightenment, liberation, nirvana, or anything else (or even atheists can be spiritual), those are my brothers and sisters in spirit. Again, this is what Jesus meant when he said,

    "Whosoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister"

    I wish more Christians were anything like their master.

    Reps+ to you too, Om Shanti
    Namaste
     
  5. Yeah man it's a reality I came to a couple months ago. There are no other motives than selfish ambition in a fruitless conversation. I applaud your sense of reason.

    Yeah man, we probably have a lot of beliefs that differ but we're on this planet together so why not love instead of condemn each others beliefs, ya know? I feel you man
     
  6. We can all converse with Spirit at will..conduit to the Most High.
     
  7. Talking to people about a God is a waste of time - If a "happy clapper" came up to me and preached about God - it would piss me off. I am pretty much closed minded still but still starting to be more open minded - I still love my science books and podcasts that all go against the idea of a God but I am still sort of getting faith in a God (not of any particular religion - i don’t see going to church etc would do me any good) I think everyone must be ready or it just comes to them - There is no way you can prove a God and there is no need for him/her/it for life/universe and everything to exist. As i get older i find spiritual part of me more important and to believe in something bigger - if this is just a survival mechanism to deal with the inevitable death of me and my loved ones or that I am seeing something bigger than me iand ts reaching out to me who knows
     
  8. I think talking about God could further our understanding of Him and who He is. It could be beneficial when we leave our emotions and preconceived notions at the door ya know? It can definitely be a waste of time though, as you said.

    I agree with what you said about proving God and belief in Him just happens. One day I was randomly hit with the epiphany while sitting at home. It was totally unexpected.
     
  9. Yes. There is (I think) a 'precise' history of ideas in our last 2500 years and that includes the desire for man to consider the possibility of what we call God, an all knowing supremely powerful, (and so on) Other. That is the proof that God exists. God is an idea. A very exciting, comforting, and important idea to most people. And is natural to the history of thought (including our moral traditions, ethics, and it's associated ideas of forgiveness, justice....)

    If one says God is not an idea, there is really a Being in man's image and a father in the heavens, who created the world in exactly seven days, etc. That is what religion has done with the common Necessity of God. However, even in religion though, the details, parables, and stories.. of for example Christianity, adhere to the same Necessity whose form is the history of ideas.
     
  10. #10 still alive, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2011
    You will find that the idea of Gods (nature and human like) came in pretty early in our evolution process. If you can find vardis fisher's 'testament of man' series it has a good overall picture of human evolution and western beliefs (though some ideas are incorrect as books are over 50 years old). I can see the argument that the idea of God(s) is an outdated concept as is seeing the moon, Sun or stars as Gods. Who isnt to say a possible God is so beyond our understanding it expresses itself to certain generations in ways we can sort of understand it depending were humans are in our understanding of the universe? It would make perfect sense for God to present itself to early humans as the Sun etc as it would mean more to them in their struggle through life . I am like everyone else just trying to understand and my reasoning may seem like crap to other people :) - I know the Sun is a Star but early humans didnt
     
  11. If I believe I will see unicorns, will they start existing?
     


  12. Bit of a stretch connecting mythical creatures to the debate about a God and philosophy - Your comment is like in the SouthPArk episodes with the one liner "flying spaghetti monster" which mocked the sillyness of these one line statments
     
  13. Lol....all of you that think many people just 'decide' to believe in God one day, need to wake up.

    In my life...and many others who come to some kind of faith, extremely profund realizations and experiences have to happen before they will believe in something like this.

    Some are brought up to believe, question into adulthood, and come back to some sort of faith.

    I never bought the doctrine of Christianity...and I STILL do not buy into any rule-based religion....That said, I believe in the message that Christ came to give.

    Tooooo much shit has happened in my life to prove without a doubt that there is a Being that wants to live through us in manifesting love...and in that process our lives are changed...That Energy has proven itself undeniable....and if you feed it, it will feed you.

    If you choose to stay blind to it, it is all your choice. It will not reveal and change your sight, if you dont trust that it can happen.


    Also, one cannot discount that power just because shitheads misuse religion for their own purposes. Human nature hasn't changed ....and some people in this world will not ever see the Way.

    That doesn't mean people should stop trying to grow in understanding. In my view, we were created to realize our potential through growing into Higher Consciousness. That Inifinte Force wants us to develop as spirituallly understanding human beings that make a better world, here, today....everyday.

    Take your own knowledge....scientific.....philosophic......free yourself from dogma....and make this world better than it was. That is Ultimate Truth to me....devote your life to Humanity.
     
  14. Can I prove a subjective creation exists in objective reality?

    No
     

  15. How so?

    It is a rather valid argument.

    OP is implying you must first believe it exists, to see it exists.

    His statement stands strong
     
  16. But we can agree the objective reality is proof correct? I mean we're all connected to it somehow.. The creation created our subjective opinion (indirectly), not the other way around IMO.
     


  17. As if this subject wasn't already a significant stretch!

     

  18. Unicorns are unicorns (horny horses!). God is the all knowing, all powerful, creator of everything. It's a very specific phenomena. If you merge God with all things make believe and fantasy like, you're missing something.
     
  19. What about everything else?

    Does it exist because I believe in it, or do I believe in it because I saw it exists.
     
  20. So I am told by a species that loves to tell big lies. There is a stone out there that prevents any gods from existing. It's a very specific phenomena. I know, because a human said so. See how easy that is?
     
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