Ca and na crab oyster kelp problem

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by 2cent420, Jan 3, 2023.

  1. I found my problems finaly I’m gutted like but now I need to fix this

    Na sodium shouldn’t be above 0.5
    Now kelp doesn’t absorb na but apparently it’s meant to be washed and my organic gardener hangs it wet from the sea to dry

    My crab shell is fresh grinder from a chicken farm at the beach who said they don’t wash it either

    then I google crab it’s known high sodium and How much sodium is in Soft Shell Crab? Amount of sodium in Soft Shell Crab: Sodium 1030mg

    wot the fook that’s without salt water
    How can I add crabs ca without crab which is also mg rich I’m now unsure if it should be added there is a lot on mg and soil and the ewc should carry enough mg really so the crabs mg isn’t needed but the ca and chitin is
    I need 3 Ca inputs it’s the key

    How much sodium is in Oyster Shell Calcium? Amount of sodium in Oyster Shell Calcium: Sodium 0mg

    Gypsum is sexy
    the oyster is fine
    Crab is fucked
    Kelp I need a new source il find

    Also my k was so damn high it locked out my mg fe and p which did a number all round looking like mg and having led I was advised to add 70ppm mg to water but that causes a collapse of the soil fast a sure fall to death as the soil farmers and lecturers say
    All I did was follow the water schedule the kelp was too much every 7 days

    since found out that’s well overdoing it I need to mix kelp at the start with ewc to keep k and p even while I spray fish hydrolysate while I push ca up in veg high to accommodate k in flower
    Ewc Topdress before flower to keep p without a push
    And apply sop 1 week in to have k ready after stretch to be above p allow ca to decline with n as k pushed higher than p for the rest of the grow

    and then let it be till 2 week before harvest then amend chicken shit to the top to breakdown for veg again

    what na free can replace crab

  2. You are 100% correct on kelp needing to be washed or hung in the rain for a while before being dried. We have bull kelp up here which is basically the Pacific Ocean version of Ascophyllum nodosum that most of us use.
    I’ve seen first hand all the grass around a pile of fresh kelp die in just a few days after a good rain. The grass doesn’t come back for a long time.
    The only legit reason I can think of for not rinsing kelp before drying would be if it were to be used as animal feed. The salt would probably be beneficial and provide micros for animals, and salt licks wouldn’t be needed.
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  3. "Now kelp doesn’t absorb na"

    I used to think that too. Turns out there's plenty of sodium in kelp. Reference the top of page 4...

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  4. Good link Wak.
    Does anyone else have problems accessing the link? When I try, it sends me to Chrome where I can see it but not save it. Once I leave the page I can’t get back in…:confused_2:
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  5. #5 2cent420, Jan 3, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2023
    This is icmag clackmas coot
    EDIT: The only element that kelp does NOT absorb from seawater is Sodium. There will be salt on the external skin but that is removed by washing prior to the drying process.

    That’s my cite for the info I provided not claiming it as 1106552[/URL]]@waktoo is a hound of info I’d believe his 2023 vs coots 2008 lol

    damn well na is the element that fights against us the plants take it before ca and osmosis drains the minerals it’s the one thing we need to avoid … if kelp and crab are salt sodium somuch I see them used outside where rain washes away in a big soil battery ok
    But for the indoor living replication of outdoors but without rain runoff variables is the kelp and crab safe ?
    I found a trend online till 5 same problems I had and they all end up either struggling a loosing battle or getting tests and seeing na sodium through the roof from the amendments

    so to continue my new soil batch I am going to need to replace crab shell
    And kelp entirely ?
    The brix thread reccomended not using kelp I couldn’t work out why but I’m guessing the added salinity is what it’s referring to ?
    Guessing this is where people have recipies with bone meal blood feather etc and if any kelp a very small amount for the base minerals (less than revisited recipie) ?

    @Organic sinse i see where you come from my chickens love it and yeah their food site also says get salt from kelp
    But this is gardening this lady is awesome bless her she even says in the description the just hangs it I emailed her and she said it’s not washed Seaweed Granules
  6. in the days of old, salt was used to ruin properties and settlers wouldnt squat there ,the railroad was the biggest contributor of that method , they would salt the land and it would look like there had been agent orange dropped on the site
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  7. So if I’m on a well and using an RO system, am I ok to be adding back epsom salt to get my Mg back up to beneficial levels?
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  8. myself when im up and running i prefer to foliar spray the epsome , but i also have no problem with a tbs to a gallon of water once a month , i will feed it first , then feed tea , i dont combine them and let the soil do that, the epsome seem to knock off the head when putting it in the tea, same for fish emulsions, just my observance , so when i think my tea is ready i then add the fish and feed.
    epsome has a great source of micro nutrients being the sulfur
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  9. do you any effect from running your well water threw the ro system?
    i would think that would take all out of the well water and then you would for sure need to supplement, i been told that it does and reason i dont use the ro system . i just cant see using so much water , and the waste cant be even used outside , from what im told
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  10. My well water is loaded with severe levels of bicarbonates. Before I realized what was going on I had some horrible issues.
    Now I use a 50/50 well to RO mix and its doing well. Still a bit shy on Ca and Mg though. I had not been supplementing the Mg until recently. Plants seem to be responding to it well. I add 1 tbsp per 55 gallons of H20.
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  11. Google slow nickle icmag mg and it will show you adding any mg to soil even dolomite is a sure wat to sign the end of the soil all mg will be in worm cast and extra if needed should only ever be foilar fed and not continuously either once it’s there it’s there
    It causes soil to collapse I’m literally binning 1000litres of soil that is past saving from adding back to my ro as advised as I am led it’s wrong and normaly the mg is another lockout from p or k causing ca to lock mg and iron etc there all there just not avalible correct the soil and the mg will release all we are doing right now is loading mg up in soil and fucking it up
    If ya can’t find if and wanna see pm me
    It’s called “cec pull up a chair slow nickle “
    Page 1 and 2

    really good read like one to save were missin ca here is a snippet I don’t wanna link another site for growing you can find it

    At the end of the day, that little bit of difference between CEC and TCEC won't make much of a difference on your Ca recommendation. But what worries me is Mg. Anyone that gets the brilliant idea to apply Mg on the soil in MgSO4 or Dolomite form, is committing themselves to a slow death. It cause large nutrient and water build ups, quite the same as using a lot of worm castings or compost. All of these factors, nutrient build up, water retention etc.. all cause one simple problem. No or little air. The more that the Mg is UNDER estimated (by using concepts like TCEC), the more most will apply more Mg. I made this mistake for more than 20 years. Cost me millions.

    This is why lots of you all went to this mediums where the water pours through like a sieve. Makes it nearly idiot proof to those that want to put on these absurd amounts of water.

    Ask the guys at Growers what comes back in the soil analysis that they use and what recommendations will come back. They test for a CEC and Calcium to my understanding, nothing else. Why? Because everything else is in the woowoo juice that they sell, which is according to everyone that I have heard use it, is nothing short of spectacular.

    I believe it has to do with the relationship of the NPK. The same type relationship of NPK as the Oregon Organic NPK product has. Basically a 1-2-1 (N, P2O5, K2O) Which is really a 1-1-0.8 or so of a real N-P-K

    That is a lesson in P folks.... very few companies work that relationship anymore, much less claim that it is an all in 1 bottle.
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  12. i did the same when i lived in the city, terrible water, got tired of buying the water so often, i started just bubbling a 33 gal can outside and mix half and half like you and did very well , going back i think the biggest issues i had and having with the pro mix was just that the city water, 1 tbs per 55 gal isnt gonna hurt nothing , and more than likely to little if anything, but if they digging it let um go hahahah
    i harvested that pro mix grow by using the foilar spray on them , plants gave me hell for 12 weeks and that how i saved um , it without a doubt is like a asprin for a headache to them plants , i use it very often outside in the veggie garden now
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  13. Yeah… I either hear this or use it. I also do a foliar occasionally.
    I am adding a lot of compost now as a topdress, maybe I can hold off on the epsom salt addition in the water?
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  14. 100% man compost has everything if we’re lacking somthing from then then it’s a bacterial cycle missing or a ph missing as compost has all trace elements too should be plenty
    I’m remaking my soil on the low end recommendation of kelp after washing it 3 times I still have a salt reading lol it’s dropping though
    I’m also going to drop neem as it doesn’t control any bugs in my grow room
    It surprises fungal and bacterial which is what we want and can also stunt growth as well as aza being able to be taken in by canna and held to the end it causes problems in the body few guys testing with and without said the conditions associated dissapeared
    Neem adds 6-1-2 or similar that’s all
    I’m using chicken shit with 3-3-4 and 9 ca
    So I’m not missing anything there really so I’m topdressing alfalfa pellets from the horse store which have mollasses in them worms devour them and they help bacterial colony’s contain natural pgr and add a nitrogen that’s not really hot I’ve never noticed it warm up a lot from alfalfa can if enough is applied but I’m just scatter them .
    now fish meals they will heat up a lot bacteria goes nuts on them

    main if anything that ever needs to be added is the ca gypsum oyster are the best but it also comes from other places like bone meals and feather etc so incorporating them also increases ca in another form and you also get some p for microbes just keep k equal where poss
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  15. Great info!
    I’ll stick with the compost and see how it rolls. I’m often guilty of changing too many parameters at one time.
    I agree on the Ca. I do add gypsum, but usually only every other run.
  16. #16 waktoo, Jan 5, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2023
    Slownickel, and many others have it wrong. I have been guilty of this myself in the past.You can't make informed, accurate decisions using the results offered by soil tests developed for mineral soil, and applying that data to what's going on in your peat/compost based soilless potting mix. The physical and chemical characteristics of mineral soil are very, very different than that of soilless media. It's the wrong test. You need a "saturated media" or "saturated paste" report/test. This tests the minerals present in the soil water. It doesn't dissolve amendments susceptible to easy dissolution by the strong acids used in the base saturation test. As I explained earlier in another thread, some amendments like lime (Ca), dolomite (Ca/Mg), gypsum (Ca/Sulfate), epsom salt (Mg/Sulfate) that we use will be present in small, undissolved particles in the soil sample that you submit for testing. These tiny particles present in your soilless media sample with be fully dissolved by the acids used for testing mineral soil, and they will appropriately spike/skew the concentration levels reported for those nutrient ions present in the amendments used. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is jacking up your sodium levels as well, to some degree. You really can't escape sodium. It's present in appreciable concentrations in a great many of the materials we use. Neem, kelp, alfalfa, and dairy/poultry manure, for starters.

    You need to know what's in the soil solution, the dissolved nutrient ions and their relative concentrations that are present in the soil water. "Saturated media extract test" or "saturated paste report" with DTPA extraction, for a more accurate representation of micronutrients. Get a couple of tests done on your bed. If you haven't dismantled your bed yet, take samples from around your healthy plant in the middle of your bed, and samples from one of those plants most afflicted on the outside of your bed. For each plant, take multiple samples (5-6) from around the plant at various points, from a media depth of 6-8". Mix those multiple samples (from individual plants) together well, then take out what you need for testing. Do not mix the healthy plant soil samples with the unhealthy plant soil samples! That way you can compare/contrast the results to see what's what. If you haven't harvested yet (I don't remember), wait until you have. It should give a better idea what's truly problematic if your issues are related to toxicity/lockout.

    To bolster some of what I've discussed, I would refer you to chapter 7.1 in the attached PDF that outlines the rather involved topic of soil testing methods. Highlighted areas in the text are of my own doing, relevant to some point or other inherent to understanding soil chemistry.

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  17. I’ll have a read right now buddy Thankyou .
    I’ll tell ya where I am at currently as you wondered ,
    Dismantled 1 bed 4week ago bagged up with fungi and wrapped as to help it colonate. Not a worm not a mite not a seed germ or a fungi in them bags so I do think the sodium is phucked in there the life is gone

    other indication is that the bed in question that’s isn’t bagged yet , the middle plant is fine as worms hang there to fix shit first I guess, she rooted hard in the centre but now roots adventuring outwards more I can see top burn on a few leaf showing nutes or somthing is hot down there
    All the edge pots was after 3week still same 1l root ball From when I and planted, browning from burns was strange to see.
    I repotted In to all mix biobizz and 4days later I have green growth, 1 was dropping leaves totaly yellow so I did it and all no effort it pulled right out, except that midde one she got some roots down

    Beds defo toxic, I am prepared to rebuild everything today I got payed and I can order no problem
    I realise the test unless a m3 paste is inaccurate, but the minerals that are missing are definitely missing …especially as they dissolve everything lol
    I know it’s salty my amendments are salty more so than they should be and that threw shit out kelp not washed crab is fresh etc.
    I royaly messed up the soil, the top 3 inches are new soil where worms are living and I believe are fixing top plants soil slowly, so I plan to mix up a batch dig her out best I can without disturbing rootsmuch, washing back soil gently remove as much as poss, and re soil around her root ball, plant others in place. therefore any biology in her centre 5litre will be kept and she don’t get disturbed much .

    being as neem doesn’t kill any bugs though and the aza could be contributing to my muscle problems , I thaught to drop neem, my bt dunks kill any larvae anyway, but they leave mites alone and it works via bacteria so yay. And letting fungal thrive is a good thing right?

    So I’ve looked at billions of recipies some are insane others are crazy simple
    Yeah frank and slow basicly explain t cec and about calcium should be 85% as it Carry’s all nutrients , how p shouldn’t be greater than k and that p k push at end but k always dominant .to stop ca after stretch if you want to push k, and only foilar mg if needed don’t add to soil by epsoms . In fair most what I’ve taken from them seems to match up to what I read here except it’s like a university lecture some confusing others interesting
    There nuts but know a lot too , big science shit and cite a lot of good sites to back it, and about the food web feed the soil etc ,

    but as you can see I feel at home here I love you guys I feel more welcomed and equally looked at like stoned buddies lol where as over there sure it’s curious and interesting but I feel like scum to them frat houses lol

    I’ve been scared to add ca after my tap waters carbonate calcium rise , now I know it was a useable form and that just spiked ph, it wasn’t a reflection on all ca .

    I could test n test n try fix but at £100 a test and 2 week wait then try fix , test again wait …where as new soil costs £120 and can cook 2 week if needed and know it’s there like at the start, I guess I’ll start again save the stress money and time .
    I found countless people till5 have these problems I had was like reading a story book I knew already again and again.. salt ca and p k locks mainly from na salts. Dude had same test as me like a mirror did a mech3 full and smear and the numbers like you say, we’re totally different but showed still it was out of tune totally still lol. So let’s make soil!!!and this time Logan 2 wk before harvest every time .

    I come up with this recipe trying to keep it simple and feed the soil, it’s meant to be water only …and is so damn close to coots etc I can’t see much wrong but if a big wig can check it lol I’d love you
    Now here’s the recipe I’ve made still checking n researching . I am off to read chapter 7 and the rest you have posted I thank you deeply bro,

    also I want to use chicken shit if I can I got a 3-3-4 9ca but I’d look after next round as the ca kinda replaces the lime n shit it’s so good in there haha
  18. Oh and the company had ago at me told me peat was fine even though there test paper said different
    He’s pleading ignorant to telling me to mix peat himself I have the emails I’m sending him back lol
    I hate this he basically says uk soil is different to us soil so we don’t need to be as exact just totally wrong is acceptable lol
    This is what he said to me in the end
    This is wrong. We don't extract with acid, but with a 1M solution of ammonium acetate which is buffered to pH 7, so neutral pH. The ammonium displaces cations like calcium from the exchange site into solution.
    5) I would suggest finding a facility that offers DTPA saturated media extract testing DTPA saturated media testing is an American method. The test we offer in the UK is based on the recommended extraction methods for UK soils.
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  19. Since you are at the point of communicating directly with the testing company, you should describe your set up, indoor bed, how you made the soil, and see what they recommend for testing. It sounds like they think you are growing in a bed outdoors, in the ground. So that’s what they are testing for, (UK native outdoor garden soil).
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  20. More reading...

    You may want to consider looking into PGPR's (plant growth promoting rhizobacteria) and salinity stress as well...

    Best of luck. Hope you get it figured out.
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