BREAKING: Civil War breaks out in Democratic Party, MoveOn.Org turns on Obama

Well, that's bipartisanship for you... this whole thing has united Obama's liberal base and the conservative bloc, but, uh, probably not the way he intended. At least you can say he's uniter, not a divider

You gotta be doing something wrong to piss off both sides of the aisle. I don't know a single well-informed person, regardless of where they find themselves on the grand political spectrum; who favors this health care bill thing, personally.

 

If you look to the best assertion in this situation on what our president is doing wrong, it's that he's listening to everybody but himself. There's a lot more to this, but that is the easiest to see. Half of his administration is shit, and either something is vastly blindsiding him from seeing that, or he know's everything that's going on and just doesn't give two shit's about the quality of the work that is being put into legislation.

 

Wow, that Dylan dude is worse than the prohibitionists when it comes to letting someone else speak.

 

sure every American is entitled to health insurance, as well as a car, house, $500 a week to live off of. it doesn't matter if they work, or are in this country legally. almost everyone who isn't insures either is an illegal immagrant, doesn't want to pay for it, or doesn't work a career that they are supposed to keep for life.
if a "healthcare bill" screws over the doctors, than it isn't a good healthcare bill.
this bill that obama is pushing through has nothing to do with healthcare, but more to do with control. I'm sure that there is a provision in there that will allow the government to regulate our behavior. Employers who pay the copay under the current system can.
this bill is also aweful because there is no mention of tort reform. cut all the frivilous lawsuits and watch the cost of healthcare drop to half of what it costs now. malpractice insurance is VERY expensive, about $100,000 a year.
we just broke our debt ceiling (Obama outspeant the entire Bush administration in under 6 months) so we simply can't affford this.
I CAN NEVER SUPPORT A GOVERNMENT PROVIDED HEALTHCARE SYSTEM UNTIL HEALTHCARE IS MADE AFFORDABLE IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR

 

Obama isnt socialist, he is a fascist pig just like Bush. Its time for a third party in America before its too late. It is nice to see everything start to turn on its head though.

 

So much for civil war, and here I was thinking they wouldn't pass the healthcare bill. Shame on you.

 

he's a socialist and a fascist... And to whoever said that Obama isn't listening to himself and is just letting it be run over, I'm pretty convinced at this point that there was never anything there to begin with. Sucks to find out the guy I voted for and actually believed could make positive change is just another empty suit.

:/

 

You don't have a right to health care. Health care isn't a natural right. You have the right to seek adequate health care. Even if you did have the right to adequate health care that doesn't give you the right to force other people to pay for it.

 

For truth.

 

Abso-fucking-lutely.

 

You're obviously just a Bush-supporting racist

Tonight I overheard a girl bragging about the power that the Dems now have:

"Look, we are bribing senators for hundreds of billions of dollars in front of the whole country and there is nothing you can do about it! We will get our healthcare no matter what the means."

It's disgusting

 

Right, but when the the cost of health care is too high for even the average citizen to afford there is a problem.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Most people in the US are POOR. No one is saying health care should be free, but it shouldn't be this expensive while executives and investors reap in profits topping billions of dollars off our health issues.

There is a reason health care costs what it does here; it's because the system is not designed to reduce costs nor is it designed to provide top-notch health care. It's designed for profit like every other privatized industry. This isn't always a bad thing (think of Wal-Mart) unless the government gets involved (think of cigarettes). Technically a fully privatized health care system will actually work very well provided it stays fully private. With one exception: a demographic of people who simply cannot afford to seek out health care. Leading to public health institutions. Leading to this mess.

So unless you think you can have a society with no poor people, or unless your morals allow you to watch millions of these people have inadequate access to health care, this system will never work.

EDIT: Lastly, you said this: "...that doesn't give you the right to force other people to pay for it". So do you complain when you pay for people's schooling? People's parks? People's subway and subway repairs, even though you don't use the subway? You pay income tax, therefore you pay for a lot of people's livelihoods and services. Why would you make health of all things the exception?

 

I would advise you to wake up and smell the coffee friend. Perhaps you should sit down and think about why there are so many poor people in this country, and why more and more middle class are slipping into poverty. I can give you some hints: High taxes (business and individual), heavy regulations (imposing high cost on doing business), depreciating dollar (more dollars equal less buying power) unrestrained government spending (spending more than you take in creates all sorts of nasty problems, like inflation).

You don't need a society with no poor people. That is economically impossible. What you need is a free market in health care, like you said. We need government to get out of the way. We have more government involvement in health care than any other industry, except finance and banking. The more regulations and controls and subsidies the government places on market operators the higher their cost is going to be, which in turn, means higher cost for you and me. It's not really that difficult to figure out. Instead of all of the emotional bullshit that is thrown at you like "oooh the poor! what about the poor!" Try using logic and reason. If government passes a law that requires health insurance companies to give everyone free doctor visits then health insurance companies have to increase their rates to compensate for the increased cost of doing business. Doctors will bill the insurance company at $60 or more for a routine visit because now they have to hire people to process all of the paperwork involved. But the same doctor might only charge you $30 if you pay cash. Mine charges $45 for cash, but bills insurance companies at upwards of $100. You see, when you start putting stupid controls on things the cost will always go up. Remove the controls and you will see the market reduce cost. And yes, even the poor will be able to afford health care if controls on the market were removed.

Yes, I do complain about all of those things. You have no right to other peoples money. To use the State to take their property away is a criminal act. I support eliminating the State in all forms because it is an immoral institution built upon aggression, force, theft and fraud.

 

Additionally, although not mentioned in this article, the Senates most recent "Lets Make a Deal!" with sen. Ben Nelson that indefinitely exempts his state from having to pay a 300 million/yr portion of the cost will now have to be picked up by the other 49 states, making it 100% unconstitutional.

Sorry guys, but nowhere in the constitution does it grant congress the authority to "Pick and choose which states bear more of the financial burden based on whether or not their Senators play hard to get until Harry Reid, in desperation over not having the votes to pass the bill that is ruining his career, arbitrarily exempts one state at the cost of all the others.

Yeah, doesn't work like that. Here are some more fun facts about the bill and why even if it passes the senate it won't stand up to a constitutional challenge. I guess the good news is we have 5 years to kill this thing in the courts before it even kicks in lol.

I never thought I'd see the day where, in order to keep a bill "budget neutral" they slash funding to medicare and raise taxes immediately, and then delay the program starting for 5 years. Do most obamacare fans realize that's happening? Citizens even be able to register for obamacare until 2014, so if you're counting on cheap obamacare to get you through this recession I wouldn't hold your breath.

And while we're on the subject, "cheap obamacare" is an oxymoron, this bill will have the effect of raising my premiums significantly ( I have Kaiser) with absolutely zero benefit to me. Before you jump on me about not empathizing with people who don't have healthcare now, my Fiance is a independent contractor and hasn't qualified to buy health insurance for any decent price because of some neck injuries (that of course healthcare didn't acknowledge as a problem worth treating when she WAS covered, but now that she's not covered she can't get back in because of "Pre-existing neck injury"

The bottom line is that in theory universal healthcare is a good concept, and not a terrible idea. But the way that this bill is being enacted is so fucking disgustingly slimy that I'm poisoned to the entire bill. I am disgusted with our politicians and I am mortified with anyone voting for this bill still representing it as "the will of the people" when in the latest polls 53% of voters are against, and only 32% are in favor.

With approval so abysmally low, why arnt only 32% of our senators voting for it? Because we no longer live in a represenatative government, but rather one where we elect people who lie well enough to fool us, then betray our interests for corporate campaign donations and "following the party line"

Here are some more fun constitutional "hiccups" with the bill...

 

Heres those latest poll numbers, released this morning

National (US) Poll * December 22, 2009 * U.S. Voters Oppose Health Care - Quinnipiac University – Hamden, Connecticut

 

Ehhh, the bill will pass... Sadly, there's not much we can do at this point.

 

It's economically impossible to have a society like the one we live in without poor people, and it's also highly unlikely we can reduce the amount in poverty substantially considering the current state of the country (economically and sheer population), even with correction to the factors you mentioned. There's been no point in the past 100 years I'd say where there have been a substantially small amount of poor people in this country. In fact we've been riddled with waves of depressions. So this doesn't change the fact that even in a fully privatized health care system, there would still be a large amount of people in or near poverty who couldn't afford their health care. Of course, these people aren't going to stand for that. And the problems begin.

I actually agree with you here. Socializing the current system is not the solution. As I stated, poor people can't afford their health care, the system socializes, then the problems start. It has only increased costs as has been shown. You would have to fully socialize the system for this to stand a chance, which would create a massive revenue gap in the economy (Big Pharma). Unfortunately, the American economy actually relies on the system staying privatized.

I'm more so pointing out that this health care system is second rate. You can optimize it by keeping it mostly private, but there will still be enough of a demographic missing out or suffering more financially than others proportionately to receive their health care. The rich get better health care than most elsewhere, the middle class get about the same, and the lower class get worse than elsewhere. The socio-economic bottom feeders tend to greatly outnumber the crowns. This means top-notch socialized health care systems, such as those in France, Scandinavian countries, and even Canada will always beat yours out on an overall scale. Everyone in those countries can seek out health care. As you said, that is a right. I do not think you can say that everyone in the US can seek out health care. Technically, sure. But you can't ignore that many do not to avoid going further into debt. When it's pay your rent or get your cavity put in, you choose rent and let your tooth rot. That's no ability to seek out health care if you ask me.

So how do you fix this if you can't make it more socialized, but if privatized isn't optimal? Well, you keep it mostly privatized and hope for the best. It's a terrible reality America has to face lol. I hope you weren't assuming I thought we should start socializing every bit of American health care, I was simply pointing out that saying "we have the right to seek health care, not the right to health care" doesn't address the fact that not everyone can afford to seek out health care.

Fair enough then.

 

Yeah, this is all just a fucked up mess at this point.

I would also like to know why people think we have a RIGHT to health care.