It's not just the Oregon BD folks - check out the international groups involved in 'Biodynamic Farming' which is based on Rudolf Steiner's work after WW1 Then check out the suppliers who sell the various 'horn' and other concoctions for the biodynamic crowd. They're a tad too 'out there' for me. I'm not questioning their science necessarily, it's just that you have to buy the 'whole enchilada' for it to make some kind of sense. To the extent that some of their tenets and processes will ever make sense. To each his own! LD
Gil C. is one of about 5 people in this world that I consider to be a true teacher. I attended a work shop that he conducted in California 3 years ago. It was truly a life-changing experience when I 'got it' which cleared a number of questions that I had had for several years involved in the study of horticulture and botany in general. He's the real deal - no question about that. CC
About in this order.................. 1. Masanobu Fukuoka (The One Straw Revolution) - his work is absolutely necessary to study if one is seriously involved in organic/sustainable agriculture. 2. Dr. John Faust - founder of BioAg but more importantly is his research in the decades before that. His papers and research are the gold standard in the world of humic and fulvic acids. His associate, Dr. Ryan Zadow is on par and I would consider him a personal friend. 3. Steve Solomon - originally from Oregon, then Washington and now Tasmania - huh? He must have REALLY hated living in a temperate rain zone, eh? His initial work in the area of TOF (Totally Organic Fertilizer) and more importantly his work in the area of minerals (limestone, gypsum, rock dusts, et al) started a long-needed conversation so that today these amendments are standard around the world as a means to increase the nutritional value in food as well as crop yields. 4. Tim Wilson @ MicrobeOrganics.com who is a self-taught soil microbiologist and is probably the smartest man I've ever met - on any number of subjects unrelated to agriculture or horticulture, i.e. art, music, philosophy, politics, etc. His contributions to my studies have been nothing short of amazing. His microscope and viewing system (i.e. 38" HD screen) cost more than some folks make in a year. He has done study and analysis for me on specific products, processes (vortex vs. aeration for AACT brewing), carbohydrates (i.e. yucca extract vs. molasses and the same comparisons with brown rice syrup, barley syrup, diastatic malt, maltose, etc.), humic and fulvic acid levels in an AACT, etc. He, like me, is very sick and yet he's one of the most giving individual with his time and research. LD
sorry to hear about your health have you ever heard about Gershon's work? i'm no expert, but he has a holistic/natural approach.(sorry if i crossed the line, meant no disrespect).
finally got the Bio Oregon fish hydrolysate - the label says 5-2-2. smells like a dead animal, so i guess plants will love it my hands and the whole closet stinks of rotten fish - the sacrifice u make for ur kids, heh? gave them a foliar + drench(with alfa/linseed FPE, sea salt, kelp) yesterday - they look ok. will see.
Wow! That's a first - I had a post removed for whatever reason(s). I would think that a note from a moderator would have been helpful rather than just jerking my post - oh well! LMAO LD
btw, i think one of my plants was burnt with the fish meal - top young leaves are spotty yellow on edges and droopy like hell. plus f*cking green flies are all over the place, licking the leaves they can't do nothing to the plants, though, right?
absolut666 I read your post earlier this morning and I gave it some thought and did a little checking to make sure that I had my 'facts' in order. When fish hits the processing plants, the fillets are removed and the guts, bones, scales, etc. and are then moved to a local company which processes this material into a number of products. Fish oil (both human and animals) is the main commodity that has a high-dollar return. This material is first ground into a consistent size and covered with water. The bones float to the top and are skimmed off and go off to be processed in a similar way (that I'll describe in a second) which results in 'fish bone meal hydrolysate' For the purposes of this discussion, it would be helpful to settle on a couple of definitions, i.e. hydrolysate processing is the addition of an acid to cause the chemical reaction called hydrolysis. The addition of an acid causes the molecules of water (H2O) to be split into hydrogen cations (H+ aka proton) and hydroxide anions (OH−). Water autoionizes into negative hydroxyl ions and positive hydrogen ions. The salt breaks down into positive and negative ions. So back to fish hydrolysate specifically. In the tank which has the remains (sans the fish bones), the typical acid(s) added are the same ones used to make beer, wine, cheese, sourdough bread, et al - lactobacillus bacteria. The good guys. These type of bacteria are the strains found in EM-1 for example and as a matter of fact the specific lacto mother culture, EM-1, is used by several processors. The fish oil is removed and then shipped to food-grade processors who turn this raw form of fish oil into products that you find at a health food store or a farm store (livestock application). What I think you're up against is that this specific product is not processed for agriculture where much of the oil has been removed but instead high levels of fish oil remain because this product is for feeding wild salmon, steelhead, et al. at hatcheries and fish farming operations. Meaning that this additional oil while not harmful, per se, does require a different application rate. It's 'super-charged' fish meal or something like that. LOL I would drop the application rate of this product to 50% of what one would normally apply regular fish meal at. I'd go with no more than 1 tablespoon per gallon of mixed potting soil. On another note, it's not only fish meal/bones that are processed using a hydrolysis process using acid. There is a company out of Northern California called Eco-Nutrients which has a kelp hydrolysate liquid product that Chunkdaddyo and I have been using since it was first introduced about a year ago. In the 'fermenting' (hydrolysis) all of the vitamins, hormones, enzymes (and their incumbent amino acids) are not only released from the material being fermented, but their nutritional profile is increased. Another example is yeast hydrolysate which has been used for over 20 years as an application to suppress both bacterial and fungi (anaerobic) colonies in plants. It works by triggering the plant's natural defense mechanisms. One brand name that I'm familiar with is KeyPlex 350 - not recommending this product because making your own is something that a 10-year old could handle. If you need any more information about this product specifically I have made arrangements to visit with them next week. I drive by their business a couple of times a month when I head over to the Oregon Coast. I'm going to see what they're up to and get some samples - I still have some old business cards from OSU so I can dazzle them with a ton of bovine excrement as it were. HTH LD
thanks for the detailed response the funny thing about burning is only one (out of 4)plant is burnt (and, hopefully, showing signs of recovery). he only "logical" explanation i have is - it's the oldest and the biggest of them all - hence the bigger root system and nutes intake. i noticed in some of your other posts you mention oil (i guess firsh oil and/or vegetable) can cause trouble with the roots - did i get this right? now you're saying it's just too concentrated and not "evil per se". anyway, i will use it much more carefully, from now on - both in dosages and the STANK is unbelievable, so i think i'll put it only in a EM/homegrown lacti concoction of some kind to kill the smell. I was listening to Carandang - and he dumps everything together just as one of your examples of indian Bokashi(with a half a page ingredient list) - so that's good enough for me. i wouldn't want to impose on you with this Keyplex company - but, as always, would LOVE to hear your opinion on the subject, especially if you already were planning to visit them. anything with a label "10 year old could do it" - gets my attention - it seems i have a "red thumb"
That was in response to using a fairly volatile oil as in the case of neem or karanja oils specifically. I would extend that to include most vegetable oils as well given what it takes to break them down, i.e. it requires specific bacteria and fungi hyphae that is created by the plant itself as these agents are outside the 'normal' microbe colonies that are developed by earthworms or by the thermal composting process. The Indian project is an interesting read and there are others that you can find at the science search engine, Scirus.com, on projects throughout both Asia and Africa. Bamboo and palm plant products seem to be a universal ingredient. The bamboo deal I understand but not the palm tree as such. I do use palm sugar (available at Asian markets specifically Thai markets) rather than molasses as a carbohydrate because it's more 'raw' and carries a higher level of micro-nutrients vs. traditional carbohydrate sources like molasses, agave nectar, maple syrup, etc. I wasn't too clear about who I plan to visit next week. I have an appointment with the Bio Oregon Fish folks over in Warrenton, Oregon. The manufacturer of Keyplex is made in a foreign country - New Jersey I believe. Ain't going back there - ever. Here's the Yeast Hydrolysate process - there are 3 types of yeast used to bake bread, IDY (Instant Dry Yeast), ADY (Active Dry Yeast) and LY (Live Yeast). The one you want to source is the live yeast which comes in 1 lb. bricks - about $1.75 from a food service company like SYSCO. You can usually find a bakery to sell you one as well - it's no big deal. Take 1/2 lb. of live yeast (it's in a semi-wet cake form) and break it up (crumbling is probably more accurate) and let it sit for an hour or so to 'wake up' and then cover with 1 gallon of pure clean water. Use Gil's formula for a lactic serum if that's your choice along with a carbohydrate. You can also use EM-1 for this as well. Add the same amount (by weight) of the carbohydrate as the yeast. Let it ferment for 7 - 10 days and it's ready. Add 1/4 cup of this fermented/hydrolysate yeast to a gallon container and fill with water. Apply as both a foliar application as well as a soil soak. Like I mentioned before, there's 20 years of history with this process and the Keyplex product specifically is approved by the EPA so this isn't hokus-pokus science. HTH LD
absolut666 If you're making Gil's BIM lactic serum I'd like to recommend adding 'mesu' (fermented bamboo shoots) which is part of the cuisine in Nepal, Tibet and the Northern India stated of Darjeeling and Sikkim. Fermented bamboo contains over 327 strains of lactobacillus bacteria! Pretty amazing indeed. This inoculation along with the local 'BIM' strains will push your serum into the Netherland of bacteria inoculation. [cite] I have it on good authority from my teachers: Jah Heavy Load Heh................ LD
will try to source palm sugar & mesu - will have to hit some indian/thai restaurants soon. mesu sounds especially promising - i heard about the bamboo soil biota(and i understand u grow some for this specific reason), but i don't have the space for it. if i mix EM/Mesu/Forest - i think i'll have one hell of a zoo if you're visiting BioOregon - that would be even better i was surprised to hear your Yeast recipe - you are basically saying to ferment the fermenter??? then who's doing who? lacti => yeast or vice versa???? and EM has its own yeast strains.... btw, your teachers look like they mean business these archetypal "tough old guys" - i'm from a different religion/teaching, but my teacher somehow looks the same. thanks again
absolut666 LOL! That photo was taken at the Pashupatinath Temple (पशुपतिनाथको मन्दिर) in Katmandu, Nepal. It's the world's largest temple to Lord Shiva located on the banks of the Bagmati River in Eastern Katmandu. Believers in Pashupatinath (mainly Hindus) are allowed to enter the temple premises. Anyone not born in Nepal or India is considered a non-Hindu by the temple authorities. Non-Hindu visitors are allowed to have a look at the temple from the other bank of Bagmati river. It is regarded as the most sacred among the temples of Lord Shiva (Pashupati) Done & did - circa 1973 and again in 1979 by your's truly. An interesting time searching for a guru (teacher) by a kid from Laguna Beach - to say the least. Next stop? Goa. And then it was onto Kerala. Another life ago as things turned out. LD
LD love your posts full of useful info. Found this thread searching about fish emulsion. Glad to read about diffrence between big processed fish emulsion and hydrolized fish emulsion. A question a little off topic if I may. In this thread you were talking bout one of your mentors and you said "He has done study and analysis for me on specific products, processes (vortex vs. aeration for AACT brewing), carbohydrates (i.e. yucca extract vs. molasses and the same comparisons with brown rice syrup, barley syrup, diastatic malt, maltose, etc.), humic and fulvic acid levels in an AACT, etc. I have been thinking of trying yakon syrup and coconut tree sap as a carbo boost instead of molasses. I have coconut tree sap crystals (sugar) and label says: "sap...is an abundant source of minerals, 17 amino acids, vitamin C, broad spectrum B vitamins, and nearly neutral PH" also says it is processed at no higher than 90 degrees and is an enzymatically alive product. I do have brown rice syrup too. Please what do you think of trying yakon or coconut sap in soil? Where can I read about all this that you mention? thank you
Great post. Thanks for the information in this exchange. LD, I'm interested in the kelp hydrolysate. I understand it's local. Is that a Naomi's or Concentrates NW product, or is that mail order? I Googled "kelp hydrolysate" and received no hits back.
Bonsai Bob You're the 2nd person I've ever posted with that knows what yakon (yacon) is! Pretty popular with the vegan crowd who abstain from honey. It would serve you well as a carbohydrate in an AACT - much better than molasses (cane sugar unsulphured type) but then again there are at least a dozen other carbohydrate sources that are better than molasses. For sh*ts and grins sometime check on why molasses has to be 'unsulphured' vs. 'desulphured' - heh. RE: Coconut Water Keep in mind that there's 3 things to consider when talking about adding coconut - there's coconut water/juice which is simply what comes from the coconut itself. Then there's coconut milk and coconut cream - these are manufactured products and should be avoided - never, ever use them. For coconut water/juice you can go with 1 cup of coconut juice to each gallon of tea. And if you can you want to source 'green coconuts' which are the ones with the thick white husk - these are always available at Asian food markets - you can't make real, honest-to-God Thai curries without this item. And they're always cheap, cheap, cheap I'll have to look up what the difference is between mature coconut juice vs. green coconut juice but from my feeble memory it's something about a specific sub-set of auxins (i.e. phytohormones) which facilitate branching and flower sets. I'll get you the accurate information later this evening - my mind isn't as sharp as it once was - LOL HTH LD
MizzaFishKilla The liquid kelp product is from Eco Nutrients out of Northern California. According to their web site they pull 'Bull Kelp' from beds stretching from Alaska down to the Oregon-California border. Both Naomi's and Concentrates carry their fish hydrolysate as well as the liquid kelp product. Buying both bottles (1 gallon) runs about $32.00 and the rate of application is 1 oz. of both/either to 1 gallon of water so you'll definitely get your money's worth! LOL HTH LD