Attn: CH3VELLE -- About a question I asked you and you never answered...

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by IGotTheCottons, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. [/quote]

    By any chance, did you ever get around to figuring this out yet? I'm still waiting for my response... Not trying to sound rude or cocky, or anything like that. I just want to see your take on this question... Or your pastor's... Either or...

    ...Or should I take your lack of a response as an indication that there really is no answer to this question? That it is, indeed, a legitimate doctrinal contradiction? If you have any scripture that can justify God knowing less than God, I'd love to read it. Jonathan tried to argue it, but was very unsuccessful... But I still want more POV's... If anyone thinks they can solve this puzzle, by all means, go ahead :D
  2. Wouldn't this be more appropriate in PM, 'o moderator?
  3. R_M, i think he was starting a thread WITH a pm, tho, he is asking the a question for the public. He wants more Points of View, and is asking anyone who can possibly answer this, to post up.

    I think, possibly if there is jesus, and god... that god is maybe an older astral being, and jesus maybe fused with that astral being, they know the same, but with separate knowledge. There one in the same, but 2 diffrent minds. i dont know.
  4. I gotta figure if god is around jesus was his fancy young gay boy and they had a falling out when god sent jesus on a mission to find more drugs but totally sold his ass out for a drug debt

    nothing like handing your partner over to a pissed off crew for a shipment of blow ya didn't pay for to piss 'em the fuck off lol course god being god gave jesus a continue but jesus said fuck this I ain't going back there again
  5. I'm not sure which scripture you are asking about, or which version of the bible it came from. But I thought that Jesus was the Son of God.

    I enjoy deep religious conversations, debates and such, but I do not have time today.
  6. Ah unfairness, you gotta love it.... cause you can't do much else about it.
  7. Im not going to claim that I can answer the question but I guarantee if I asked the church they would tell me all about the holy trinity. The trinity seems to be a paradox. Jesus represents 1/3 of the trinity but jesus is also said to have two separate roles. Jesus was a man and a god separately. The trinity actually contains 4 natures according to the catholic church.

    I would argue that jesus has been largely misinterpreted. I can not think of any passage in which jesus is quoted as saying he is god. His statements were always more along the line of him being in communion with god. Jesus said things like "I and the father are one". Statements like that are open to interpretation. The more I read the bible the more I feel that jesus is claiming to be a representative or extension of god and not claiming to be god. For example, we are all part of this forum, we all represent this forum, but none of us are this forum. The bible says nothing of the trinity. I feel that the catholic church's idea of the dual roles of jesus supports my position more than it does there position. The idea of jesus being god is hero worship. The longer a person is dead the more exaggerated their role becomes. In an attempt to justify jesus being god the concept of the trinity was created. That is why the trinity is a paradox, it was created to fit a preconceived notion. If you cant prove something with logic the next best thing is to confuse people then walk away. If the people cant grasp the concept they will assume you are smarter than them and the will believe you.
  8. I don't think it would be hard for God to hide anything from Himself.

    It doesn't make any sense but there could be a reason for it- just not one that is clear in scripture. It's a contradiction that could easily be explained by all-power but never was.

    It would make sense that if it was a hidden thing- it wouldn't be discussed though. Keeping a secret from yourself isn't even a problem to an All-powerful being, but why it wouldn't be hinted at at all in the Bible kinda confuses me if that's the reason why.

    Maybe it's too important we keep the secret?

    Not saying it's true or anything, but there are some possibilities for Jesus as man knowing less than God as spirit yet still be the same being.

    In my opinion it is possible only if we are all the Sons of God, (we are God) just Jesus actually knew it firsthand somehow. We don't know as much as God yet we are a part of Him, perhaps Jesus was just confused by what He experienced; or maybe we were the ones that are confused... Who knows? If we are keeping a secret from ourselves that is that important, let us pray we never figure out what it is. ;)

  9. Cottons asked for other points of view. So, no, this is fine where it is, 'o registered member.

  10. The one were Jesus says that he doesn't know when the end times will be, only the father knows. However if you believe in the trinity then what Jesus says is contradictory.

    IGotTheCottons can probably give you a link to his original thread about it.
  11. Let me play the bible's advocate here ;)

    If Jesus is fully God as well as fully human, then how is it that He can be ignorant of anything, since God is omniscient or all-knowing? One might conclude that Jesus did not know all at the time of His birth, and during His childhood. I find the translation of Luke 2:40 in the NET Bible insightful, it reads:
    40 And the child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom, and the favor of God was upon him.​
    Later on in Luke chapter 2 it reads,

    Luke 2:46-47
    46 After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Jesus were astonished at his understanding and his answers.​
    "This openly expressed limitation on Jesus' knowledge affirms His humanity. In His Incarnation Jesus voluntarily accepted human limitations, including this one (cf. Acts 1:7), in submission to the Father's will (cf. John 4:34)."[Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary

    In the New Testament he seems as one person, both divine and human. How, then, can we say that he knew the day and hour on his divine side, but not on his human side? so to me, its just confusing, and the fact that i see the bible as a fictional screenplay doe'snt help, but thats not the argument here. :D
  12. My opinion is that Jesus is using this word "to know" in two different ways in Matthew and Mark. Jesus is saying, on the one hand, that His disciples cannot, should not, and will not "know" the precise day or hour of His coming. On the other hand, Jesus is using the same word (to know) with reference to His submission to the Father in regard to the timing of His return. He is saying, I believe, "It is not my place as the Son to determine or to announce the time of my coming " that is an aspect of My Father's role in the Trinity, as the Father." The bottom line is that the disciples have a fixation on knowing the exact time of our Lord's return. Jesus is saying, in effect, "It is none of your business
  13. Haha, I love when people cling to the bible. What a joke.
  14. Then why does he specifically mention that the Son doesn't know, and he specifically mentions that he is The Father in John? "I AM" = Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, God the Father, etc. It's the God of the OT, whom is the God who knows the "hour when the end will commeth" according to Matthew... So it's like this:

    Jesus claims to be the God of the OT (God the Father) by saying that he is the "I AM". In order for Jesus to be the Messiah, this has to be true. No way around it (well, according to scripture anyway). Jesus demonstrates acts of omniscience several times in the gospels. He knew ahead of time that Judas would betray him, he knew that Peter would deny him three times before the cock crowed thrice, and so on...

    How then, is it possible for him to NOT know the exact hour of the end? If he's really God the Father (which for him to be the savior, he has to be), he has to know the exact hour of the end. If he's not God the Father, then Christianity really is bunk.

    Reasoning, FTW! :D

  15. It is possible for many reasons that we are trying to show you but I guess we aren't getting the point across.

    It would not be hard at all to accomplish this. It is the Almighty God.

    Consistency can be a problem in the Bible and much has to be explained by this. But that is the only answer that makes any sense to me- that God can do whatever he wants, even not obey His own rules.

    Believe what you want though, I agree it's hard to swallow- that's why I stand in the middle. I'm not sure what to think anymore. I mean I know there is a God, but the definition of God has been escaping me lately... So now I'm more thinking that I can only focus on "parts" or "faces" of God instead of the whole "thing" which as the All is nothing (no definition) you know what I'm saying?
  16. I believe Jesus(considering the arguement that jesus is the son of God and the bible is inerrant and true,) that he was simply a man... before and after his baptism... if you read the gospels thourally enough, you will notice the relationship between himself and God his father, consider the fact that he had to pray, he had to fast, he had to stand temptation...

    Jesus was and should have been portrayed more in the gospels as simply a normal man... his confessions to his diciples were then true, (that he is the I AM, but does not know the hour or day) but consider an egg yoke (the yellow bit) it can claim to be the whole egg, and indeed it is , but to call it an "egg" in current terminoligy would lend you to expect its other parts. the egg yoke, white and the shell... this is something like jesus.

    A man, but he was claimed by the apostle paul to have been the first man adam, if you read somewhere in the NT by apostle paul, he says jesus had to learn obedience, so was he inexperienced before this? how can this be so, if he is truly God? another one to consider, he had to gain his seat of glory next to his father, what was his hyrachical stature before the big event? ( at the chross?)

    I think for you, the best way is to answer these questions the best way understandable, think of jesus as outside of the 'Trinity', like michael or raphael or sumthing, only that he is the son of God... who had to prove himself worthy in front of the angel and amongts men, that his father had to openly completent him in front of his diciples to reasure him in his endeavour. so give him his right to boasting, that he is the I AM, after all he is the one and only Son of god, considering all this is true that is.
  17. im getting quite acquainted with getting put on the spot in this forum. dont worry cottons, i am used to it.

    i believe Jesus is the son of God. do i know all of the details regarding their relationship? no, and honestly, im in no hurry to find out.

    edit-also, if this is such an important question to you, shouldnt you look elsewhere for the answer? after all, i am merely a member of a cannabis forum.

    thank you all, its been an honor.
  18. I see your point, but there's a big problem with looking at Jesus like that (Scripturally/Doctrinally speaking). Jesus would have had to be the "I AM" in order to actually be the savior. Not just some guy who had an abnormal closeness to God, or who had gained approval with God, or that is just a part of God. He would have had to have been God incarnate. He's described as the only begotten Son of God in John 3:16 (KJV).

    Also, Jesus is self described as omniscient in Revelation ("I am the Alpha and the Omega... The Beginning and the End..."), so how then is he Omniscient in Revelation, but not in Matthew?

    Not trying to really put you on the spot. You said you'd see if you could find an answer and never responded beyond that. I was just interested to see what your perspective is... As well as other people's POV, too...
  19. Jesus had to learn obedience through suferring, there is a big problem with this statement. "Although he
    was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered" (Heb 5:8, ESV). What does that mean?

    Was he moving from disobedience to obedience? or what was his status of glory before the cross? if he had to be "raised on high before the angels" and was "given the seat of glory" ... what then was his statues of glory before?

    When you learn the answer to this, I believe you will find it easier to view him as less of the God Almighty that he he is portrayed as.

    The Trinity, is a big problem for me... its just too hard for me to comprehend.

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