I pose a simple looking question, but that is much more complex: Are we free in the United States? (Of course, if you live in any other country, I would like to hear from you also) I'm looking for honest, logical, and fact based arguments, for either side. Sure, many of us entertain conspiracy theories, that we may actually believe to be fact. I'm NOT interested in another thread about conspiracies. Just the truth. Are.We.Free.
No... not anymore, we use to be in the early days of this country but freedom has been in a down-ward spiral ever since.
Yes we are, you live in a great country compared to the rest of the world. You have food to eat and a roof over your head. Your perception of what you think is "free" is skewed because you've grown up with the government taking care of you. There are a lot of corrupt things going on in the world today, but keep in mind the government is just a group of people like you and are indeed human. I'm sure if the government were to disappear tomorrow you'd regret begging for "freedom" because of corruption and the legality of a plant. You'd be too busy fearing for your life and reverting back to your primal instincts to hunt/gather/reproduce. We're all one young species trying to figure things out, nobody knows why we're on this rock hurling through the galaxy but the fact that you're experiencing life at this moment is statistically astonishing. You gotta remember that society as a whole is just the way we perceive life now and not how we were intended to on this planet. Yes, it's hard to be thankful for local law enforcement and the federal government when there is so much corruption, but they feed you, give you shelter, and and protect you from the murderer next door. There are people in this world that will never see those privileges. So just enjoy every conscious experience daily and be thankful for what you have!
I do agree with some of what you said. Is it statistically astonishing that we have any existence at all. Society is more of a perception than anything else. However, you say we live in a "great country compared to the rest of the world". How is our "society" any better than any other "society"? While most of us are fortunate enough to have food and shelter, it's no secret that malnutrition and homelessness are serious issues in society. Not because people make conscious decisions to make this so, but because as much as "we" (as a "society") preach equality, we do not treat each other as equal, and let's face it-sometimes bad things happen to people who have strived to support themselves in life. True that the term "free" or "freedom" is not as easy as a clear definition. We are after all, human, and as social creatures we are vulnerable to group mindsets. The government IS indeed made up of other human beings, but does that make them similar to the average citizen? Is power over people not something of a rarity for the vast majority of people? What about me is comparable to a political "figure" who spends tens of millions of dollars to make you agree with them? In the history of our existence, when has fear for our own wellbeing or being hunter/gatherers instinctually been detrimental to the human race? It seems like these would be valuable and important traits to possess. To enable the continuance of our species. The government is a necessary evil. We are not prepared, or even capable of living a life that no longer has certain protections only possible by a governmental system. Corruption is nothing new, however. We must adapt to this. But how does having a government make you or I free?
I actually agree with every single thing you just said haha. The sad reality is one day we will ALL revert back to hunter/gatherer eventually if we survive our civilizations downfall(every civilization will have one). I hate the country I live in and I know some politician in a vacation house in Hawaii is bathing with my money as I type this but there's nothing I can do about it, so I make the best out of it. The reality is everyone is too stupid to realize they're poisoning us slowly, whether it's media, the amount of corn fed to livestock, the supposedly fluoride poisoned water sources, it's all happening. I think the corvettes and cell phones are distractions from what we're really here to do. I wish we would revert back to the basics but sadly I wasn't raised to survive in those conditions so I would die quickly. Anyway, I'm losing my thought but point is, we may never see the fall of our civilization but we're witnessing the beginning of it right now. Now, while success is subjective, the most successful people didn't follow the group mindset and were intelligent enough to see through the bullshit and use that to their advantage. I suggest picking up a book and begin your journey to success because you clearly have the potential to do great things. Sadly I would have to say give up on trying to convince the masses they're being brainwashed because they will never be able to conjure up that thought. Exert that force into yourself because majority of people are long gone.
True that the MOST successful people have not followed with group mindsets. MOST "successful" people follow it closely. Their continued success depends on it. I do not agree that we should merely "give up" on trying to correct the disinformation and ignorance that plagues us. If we give in to the fact that as a single person, we are powerless, we inadvertently give more power to those that oppose our beliefs. It is never too late to give someone the information that may just end in a new realization, or in understanding another's perception of reality. While exerting the force within is definitely very important, using the same amount of energy to educate is truly our only hope of overcoming the barriers set by "brainwashing" or just through the act of constant subjection to what others think we should believe.
I agree that we should educate but it's so discouraging to argue with someone who's been brainwashed over numerous years and believes it as absolute. My biggest example is the fitness industry. Years and years have conditioned most people to believe that if you burn more calories than you take in and you can spot reduce fat by working a muscle group. There are numerous hormones and macro nutrients that intelligent people have hidden from the masses and nobody questions anything and still complains that they're fat. They buy into all these fitness machines and diet programs KNOWING they won't work. It's crazy. The government has created a baby sitting service so there's no need to question anything or have any motivation cause it'll all be okay! What absolutely infuriates me is the fact that this board is so large and this section of it is one of the least popular. Do everyday people just not want to do ANYTHING? This is why I have given up on educating and just furthering myself. I know we will disagree on this but the average human being is too far from saving and until something on a global scale happens then we're just going to be running in circles.
It is quite discouraging. But if your neighbor was building a house on their own for the first time and you had the know how and wisdom, helping him would be only furthering the ability of someone else to learn. Arguing is time consuming, and generally not effective. People generally defend their beliefs. People buy into gimmicks to "cure" their obesity because it gives them some hope of a better future existence. And as you say, there is no lack of corporations and companies that want to make money off other people's hope. People may realize that they will not work, yet they HOPE that they will. hope is the motivator that often leads people to becoming informed, just as one who truly wants to improve their fitness will read up on the subject. Hope is a motivator. That's all. It will not make someone do something. It can inspire them to progress in their quest. The average person is not "too far from saving". perhaps they have only been exposed to one side of an idea or topic. They cannot be faulted for not being subjected to everything. They can decide to educate themselves on a subject before taking a firm stance, though. I think you underestimate people. Ignorance is not as big of a problem as disinformation is. Being educated in the subject means that one possibly knows more than a random person from the streets. If they are willing to take a stand for or against any topic, is it not worthwhile to help them continue their education? Whether or not they come to the same stance as you is only their concern. Going back a bit, you said that we are a free people (in the united states). Shouldn't sharing knowledge be a part of our freedom? After all, our society is only as effective as people make it to be. By not contributing to this, do we become part of the problem? Considering ourselves to be above-average because we know more only ends up setting us apart from other people. Formal education is a good example of this. You can make education somewhat easier on yourself, perhaps, by going to institution. But only if you have the dollars. Why should any other person be subject to less factual information simply because of their financial status?
Funnily enough, the sheeply majority are an integral part in helping the small crowd rule and reap the benefits... If we think we are powerless..then guess what? WE ARE. Also, the opposite is true. ENOUGH NEGATIVITY.
Helping a genuine person is one thing, in today's society a genuine person is so rare they might as well be extinct. EVERYTHING, in our westernized culture is about exploiting ignorance for money. The biggest one (in my opinion) is the christian church. Exploiting hope for a better life, as you pointed out, for money and shaming these people when they stray from the church coax them into giving them more as a means of forgiveness. Our ENTIRE society is based on exploiting ignorance for personal gain. Until something happens that's on a large enough scale to aware people of this, it'll remain the same. The founders of the country figured out the equation early, Provide->Misinform->Exploit laziness and ignorance. I watched a documentary about the country of Qatar recently and was blown away by how much the government does for it's people, the pride they had, and how helpful they were to their fellow man. I understand they were lucky enough to be born onto oil but it's still inspiring. I agree on the equal education but this can't be avoided because nobody is created equally. No matter how hard I train I will never be the athlete Lebron James is because he was born into greatness. If the person is indeed intelligent, he will find a way if it's through formal education or not. A good friend of mine's mother pulled him out of school in 3rd grade and he never was schooled throughout his childhood. He read books unlike most kids and recently graduated with an engineering degree. It's just natural selection and playing the hand you're born with. We're fixing a train that's headed for the end of the cliff I'm afraid and we'd have to change the whole direction of the train in order to see a different life.
What you said is what I would rather have than our current government. You know most people couldn't cope if "shit went down" and after everythings been raided it would probably get bad. But then theres the other people who learned to hunt and what not and I would be happy with my huge ass crop not worrying about cops. LET THE ANARCHY COMMENCE!
No, but that is a very broad question. True freedom is total anarchy. We are free, but we do not have absolute freedom but neither are we slaves
True it is a very broad question. It was meant to be. Freedom is a term thrown around on this forum almost endlessly. My real curiosity is how people individually define "freedom" as it best relates to themselves. But asking that directly would likely result in people defining a utopia or sorts. Where problems fix themselves, and we are content with most aspects of living. But this would not be a likely reality. I like the statement about how we are free, but not absolutely so. Total Anarchy may seem like "true freedom", but I think that this is just the stereotypical anarchist utopia. In an anarchy state, we would be required to be dependent on our neighbor instead of a government. In all likelyhood policing and rules would not be abolished, merely adopted by communities at a local level. We could end up ostracizing ourselves or pitted against many other people while trying to live the dream of being a completely free "one man band". Don't mistake anarchy for something it's not. It is but another political form. Don't believe that? Talk to a few (or more) real anarchists. There are more than many people think, and many of them are highly educated and love to talk politics.
....... You think you'd be able to harvest a row of EXTREMELY potent smelling plants without teeing a fellow survivor off? A group of people would take over your house and would smoke your hard work while ridding of your body. More than half the country has a firearm in one way or another, anarchy is the last thing we want.
No we are not free. We are told we have freedoms, but all those freedoms are limited by authority. We are now more suppressed as a whole than ever before, and as someone else said, society is just a perception and is not a solid thing, it has no mass or shape. Its a compilation of many different elements that create an illusion of "society." It quite interesting actually, anyhow, we lost our freedom the day the federal reserve was initiated. We lost control of oure market" economy, and now allowed a central bank to control OUR money. I firmly believe the Fed created The Great Depression and also The Great Recession as of today. We're not free to murder, free to run redlights, free to smoke cannabis, free to drink and drive, free to inject hard drugs, nor are we free to change this. Our "freedoms" are simply rules created by men that suppressed by more rules created by more men. Although, this means no freedom, take the direct opposite and imagine complete freedom, and then imagine complete anarchy. The two are one in the same. Anarchy is ended by government and rules, freedom is limited by government. Create government, you end freedom. Interesting place we live in. Interesting indeed.
So far, cmack is the only one to elaborate the reason for his thoughts. I guess I should have been more clear on the initial post on what I'm curious about. I meant to provoke thinking. And to learn about a perspective different than my own. In my opinion, every human being is born with the desire for three things : survival, ensuring future survival of the species (reproduction), and the desire to be independent (IE, free). We may be born with additional desires, but these are the ones that exist throughout life. I do not feel that your country or Physical location determine your freedom. A repressive govt provides certain obstacles, but this can only interfere with an individual desire to be free if they allow it. A protester in a country that punishes the same activity by physical violence or even death, is free. A citizen in a country that depends on that govt for survival, and so never questions the system that tries to repress free speech, is not free. It takes much more than a 3rd world country to determine true freedom. While various obstacles exist in any situation, the end result of freedom is comprised of the willpower of the individual who desires (or does not desire) it.