Are souls born or recycled

This thread is like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

There's no evidence either way... there's no evidence that there's even such a thing as a soul. I think debate on this is pointless. It's like asking if unicorns are pink or green.

 

Why would it be an assumption to claim that there is no such thing as a soul when there is no evidence to support the existence of one? I would say it is an assumption to claim there is a soul; it is reasonable, given what we know, to say there is not one.

If they cannot work they have no skills? What is work, when you break it down, why do we work? To feed ourselves and to give ourselves shelter, basically, that is the reason. If I do not work I do not have money and I cannot survive, unless someone with money is helping me out of course. If I go and live off the grid, I would be working by hunting food, building and maintaining my shelter, and clothing myself. Well, every single bloody animal on the planet "works". They seek food, they seek shelter, they hunt or they die. Animals possess skills, as Rasta_Man showed and you ignored. There is no basis for the idea that animals have no souls, if such a thing even exists.

Well... Uh... Ok... Animals have a soul then, by your own words. What are we talking about again?

 

Bravo.

 

That's why, not because souls do exist. I'm not saying it's one thing or another, I'm saying it's not clear what we are discussing.

It's assumption because we don't know what definiton is being debated on.

It would have been assumption to think anything about his definition of soul which I know nothing about yet... Wait... Didn't I learn this from you? ...

Part of my post, but overlooked just the same.

 

What is the definition of soul we are discussing? Can we please form a premise here, instead of just jumping to whatever conclusion we see fit?

 

Yes, I did read further, I simply did not feel the need to comment on anything else that you had said. Define the soul as whatever you want, but calling a brain a soul does not mean a soul exist. It means the brain does. Now, if you want to use the word soul as another term for brain, I have no problems with that at all. Everything religion has attributed to a soul, has been revealed to be a simple brain function. Now we need to redefine the term so it still has meaning? I do not get it.

 

Oh I figured that, just didn't want to assume anything.

You didn't see the reasoning behind it then, even though you read the whole post that contained the reasoning. I'm not really sure what to say other than that speaks for itself.

We need to define the term so we can debate it on clear premise instead of assumption-based definitions that we think the other are using.

I never called a soul a brain either. Not really sure where you are getting that from.

We need to re-define the term so it is logical and reasonable- the principle will never lose it's meaning, just change the way it is viewed and understood. The soul will still mean something very special to people no matter what is behind the infinite nature of energy (physics) that is the soul to me.

 

Man, I just defined the soul. I said it does not exist, UNLESS, the term soul is simply another word for brain. As I said, if you want to define the soul as the brain, then I have no issues and more power to ya. If you think the soul is separate and distinct from the brain, then I do not. The brain is what gives us our feelings, our thoughts, our personality, our dreams, our hopes, our love, our hate, our beliefs... Everything is a function of the brain, nothing more.

If the soul is none of these things, because like I said everything religion has attributed to a soul has been shown to be nothing more than a brain function, then what the hell can it be? Not only do we have to define it, we have to totally reinvent the concept. At that point, it is not the soul any more.

Never said ya did d00d.

 

OK now I can actually form some sort of fair premise now not based on assumption.

Souls in the sense of a brain are born. Souls in the sense of energy are recycled.

So souls are both born and recycled.

If we must re-invent the concept to make it logical and reasonable then so be it. Arguing things we cannot understand or accept is pointless.

Sometimes in life we realize that definitions have to change in order for progress to continue. If the "normal" definition of soul is too varied and abstract- if we are to understand it any further we must make it percise and exact. If we cannot- there is no sense arguing.

If you meant hypothetically I understand now, but it sounded you thought I called it a brain. The you statements threw me off.

 

Correct.

I was not referring to work, as in 'I have to go to work' I was referring to work, in the sense of work of your soul; In order to do work with your soul you must help other people, this can be accomplished by showing care to other people, using your unique talents or making the process easier by demonstrating competence.

One standard measurement for work is a Watt. So when electricity flows through a wire it is doing relatively no work what-so-ever, so although you could say you have a kilowatt of potential energy, if the electricity is simply flowing through no resistance, you have not done any work, and you have 0 Watts of electricity; likewise when the energy of your soul is flowing through your body, and giving you life, it is doing relatively no work, so although you have a potential energy to use, if it is not used, you have done no work. However, if you are doing work with either your mind or hands, to help other people, you are using your life energy over a resistance, and you could say that work has been accomplished.

If you were to work your entire life for entirely selfish endeavors, it could be said that you never did any real work in your entire life. If you were to suppose that you are a closed system to yourself, and your brain is your soul, you are fast on your way to living a worthless life.

 

I see what you are saying but it will be difficult for someone non-spiritual to understand it. I agree with the spiritual principle that work is only accomplished through unselfishness. However non-spiritual people will think us crazy. LOL

 

Okay, the following post is not from me but from a physicist friend of mine who's looking over my shoulder:

the SI measurement for thermodynamic work is not a Watt, but a Joule. You are scientifically challenged.

 

so trure all false promises and hopes

 

I would like to refer you to this Thread and this One as well. There is a lot more out there, do a search and read up on animals. If animals do not have a soul, neither do humans.

It is not difficult to understand the stuff that is posted in this forum. It is only difficult to understand the reasoning behind some of it.

 

lol thanks for the help.... It's always nice to have a physicist handy when you need one. I haven't taken physics in 3 years, however strangely I do have a bachelor of science. (My major was information systems).

I'm not trying to talk out of my ass here, but explain the concept of work; so hopefully that part of the paragraph wasn't lost on your friend (having a physics degree and all).

In a way this is true, because they draw from the same life force; however relatively speaking they do not have a soul because that force is just flowing through them and they are not doing work with it.

Have a look at Matthew 6:

In these paragraphs you can see that we share the same life force with all of the living beings on this planet, however they do no work. And actually they can't do any work, because they are pure. On the other hand we are not pure, and due to this gift we have the knowledge of good and evil.

To serve God you must do God's work as I described earlier; there is plenty more that can be said about these scriptures, however I will keep it at that.

 

Did you check out those threads that I linked to? At any rate, here is something from the Bible for ya. As to the good and evil thing... Have you ever seen a cat spend an hour playing with a mouse before finally ending its life? Have you not seen an animals begin to eat another animal before it has died? I don't know man, but if I slowly ate a live animal, I would consider that to be evil. *Shrugs* Some would not though, I guess. Some people do eat monkey brains out of a live monkey after all. I do have a feeling that is probably because most people have this odd idea that animals are lesser than us. We tend to do horrible things to those we consider to be our "lessers". Just take a look at Hitler and the Jews for a good example of that.

Just one thing... In the passages you provided it describes work how I described it above. We plant food, they hunt for it. It mentions they do not gather it into barns, but many animals gather and store food. Some do it in their bodies, others do it in their homes, and others are on a constant search for food. So, the animals work in the sense they provide for themselves in order to live, like we do. Of course, when I made mention of work being like that, you went and said that was not what you meant by it, and now you seem to be saying that is what you meant? No matter though, I think I have shown that animals do indeed work, they also show compassion, they can laugh, they can love, they can be happy, they can be sad, they can feel loss, they can mourn, they can grieve... Like, really, to believe otherwise is to ignore evidence that is as plain as day, and requires you to only observe an animal to understand that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/animals/features/246index.shtml
http://livescience.com/animalworld/050331_laughter_ancient.html
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/do-dogs-mourn/page1.aspx
http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-cats-react-when-an-owner-dies.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006052210877
http://animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Morality/Speciesism/animalsfeelings.htm

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So, are we still talking about work or some odd idea that humans have some special qualities that other animals lack? Seems to me animals can be good and kind, doing God's "work" as it were... Hey! I thought we were saved by faith and not works, and that grace saved us, not works? *shrugs* Alas, perhaps I am mistaken, or you are a Catholic?

EDIT: Though I believe the Catholic's revised their stance slightly, reaching a compromise with the Lutherans. They are saved by grace and good works flow from that. Or something along those lines.

 

I like the way you explained that in the end: We are saved by grace and good works flow from that. However, I should note that I am not a Catholic, and although I believe in Jesus and that he is the Son of God, I hesitate to call myself a Christian as that is a religious connotation, and religions only exist to separate people and cause war and destruction, God seeks to unify people; the only reason why I choose to use the bible to explain this rather than another spiritual scripture, is because I am most familiar with the bible; and likely so are the readers here.

Here you can see an elaboration of what your conclusion was, we are Gods workers: Why are we God's workers? Because we were born in sin; We are born, as I have heard it put once, as demons carrying the smallest particle of God. For this reason we are able to do work for God, because there is a great resistance on us to not do it. If there is very little resistance on something it is impossible to do very much work; it is like trying to fill up a beach by carrying one grain of sand at a time, there is little to no resistance, so little to no work is getting done.

Animals are like this, they are unable to complete the work of God because they do not have the knowledge of good and evil; no amount of evolution can change this; however if today they were given the knowledge, they too would be able to be workers for God.

Actually it is interesting that we can pass on this knowledge to them, however as it is not a part of them, it must be passed to every animal directly.

Here you can see the answer to the question (in acts 5) known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Our works are as useless as filthy rags. We are given the gift of Go as part of our soul, which is eternal, so that we may do the Works of God.

If you have the patience, have a look at John 10, it explains a lot of what this thread is about:

If you read this you will realize how mistaken all of the religions are about the idea of God:

Verse 34: Ye are Gods

Jesus was the son of God because he by faith believed on God and did Gods works.

If you are not sons of God, you are sons of Evil, there isn't any middle ground. You are still a God, but instead a demon, because you are ignorant.

 

I definitly hear where your coming from, but if anybody wants to hear about the 2012 prophesy they can look that up. To me it feels like the boy who followed Jesus around saying this is the christ, Jesus went over to him and cast a demon out of him, the same goes for repeating this prophesy, all I can say is don't worry about it, wait and see; worry about what you can do now.

The one thing that caught me in what you said is in regards to the 7 chakras, becoming 13. I think it may be likely that there are 6 chakras that are in our physical body, the eye chakra and then 6 chakras that are apart of our spiritual body and ego, once we have developed a close enough relationship with the ally, the holy spirit, God, then he becomes us, and we then have 13 chakras, our 6, plus his 6 and then the gateway = 13.

The eye is the gateway to the soul.

 

@HighGrowMan - So, in order to have a soul one must do God's work? Right? Cool... Babies have no souls then and neither do the severely handicapped who are unable to do God's work, anyone who does not do God's work has no soul as well. Being saved by grace means that you do not have to do any works whatsoever to still have a place in heaven. All you need to do is believe in Jesus and die in order to get to heaven. So, do only some people have souls or what?

I would also contend that animals do indeed have knowledge of good and evil, as I tried to show earlier. I guess it was either ignored, not read, or you felt I did not do a very good job at it. I do not think an animal would know enough to call any action is does as good, or any action it does as evil, but I am certain they have feelings just as we do, and we tend to know good from evil because of them. All living things have empathy. What about the cat that hangs around the dying people in that nursing home that was in the news awhile ago, seemingly attempting to give some final comfort to the person before they pass on? I do not know what you consider to be the work of God, but I would say being nice to others, and showing compassion, could be considered God's work, wouldn't you?

At any rate, I do not even believe we have a soul, but if we do there is nothing at all to suggest animals do not have them. After all, we are simply animals with a slightly more advanced brain. Watch the video I posted above and tell me the Bonobos are so unlike us they are unworthy of having souls. Did you not see the Darby Translation? Despite what some Christian's might think, the KJV is not the most accurate translation out there, it is archaic and rather confusing to most modern people. If you toss out the Darby Translation, toss out the KJV and go and learn Hebrew and Greek, and then read the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Version
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/kjverrors.htm#mark
http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/kjvdebat.html

Oh well, I say animals are the same as us and it is dangerous for us to believe otherwise. It only leads to us committing atrocities and justifying them because "we are the only things with souls, so we are the only things that matter". *shrugs*

At this point, maybe we will have to agree to disagree?