America Lost The Civil War.

Discussion in 'Politics' started by yurigadaisukida, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Close, but we never were a democracy, we are a Constitutional Republic. Well, supposed to be at least, Not much evidence of that anymore...

     
  2. i think everyone knows the civil war was over states rights not slavery.... wait maybe not everyone lol.
     
  3. #63 ICGreen, Jun 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013
    What State's rights? Hopefully you're not pushing the idea of the Articles of Confederacy which prohibited the Feds from taxing? :smoke:
     
  4. To be against secession is to be against the formation of the US. The US was born by the colonies seceding from Great Britain. What's the difference from that and the South's desire for secession?
     
  5. Bad arguement.
    We fought and won freedom from taxation without representation from England. In doing so we joined together to make the United States. For the South to seceed it would have continued to weaken the new Nation, that wasn't going to happen. They wanted all the benefits that empowered them, but didn't want to share/play nicely. :smoke:
     
  6. The bloodiest war in American history was justified to prevent the federal government from losing power? And you call my argument bad...
     
  7. I don't know about that. All I know, is that we lost the civil war because we were fighting amongst ourselves.
     
  8. The comparison was a major stretch. Not to prevent the Federal government from loosing power,rather the Nation as a whole, to include the power of the States and it's peoples. There was still a shit ton of growing/expansion to do, not to mention the land grabs by many Nations. :smoke:
     
  9. Sigh...

    The deaths of over 750,000 soldiers (any many thousands of civilians) and massive resource waste and destruction that come with war in no way helped anyone. You're the one making major stretches, not me. Growth and expansion would have been faster without war. It's pretty sick that you can justify war so easily. You will settle for any random reason, no matter how fallacious it may be, as long as it confirms your belief.
     
  10. The war benefited anyone and everyone involved in the military industry. 
     
    He's not justifying the war. He is just pointing out that the Civil War and the American Revolution aren't so similar. American colonies seceding from Britain was not the same as the south seceding from the Union.
     
  11. #71 jay-bird, Jun 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2013
    Dude you comparing The Revolutionary War to the Civil War is crazy. England and Europe = kings, queens, religious wars, cult groups, world wars, everything bad. Middle eat, asia, africa = Genocide.
     
    The colonists had to secede, and had a great plan. America was across the sea, and for a very long time was devoid of any conflict from the outside except for impressment of sailors, barbary pirates, and yada yada. (Madison's War of 1812 pretty much ended impressment, and the barbary war fucked up the pirates)
     
    It was vital for America's security to only be bordered by Mexico to the south, and Canada to the north north in terms of land boundaries. Americans are a people who throughout their colonial and stately periods couldn't really live happily amongst or in the vicinity of others who follow largely different rules or are loyal to a a different body/cause.
     
    The civil war, was like England or Britain splitting in two, rather than one of its colonies splitting from it.
     
  12. I am hardly justifing the war, but it did happen and revisionists want to claim slavery had no part. Sorry but it had a major part.
    As did States desire for independence, and differing social and economic models (also tied to slavery).
    Look at how many States had seceeded by the time Lincoln actually took office. Fearful that he would be a northern States advocate.
    Consider that the Wilmot proviso had provisions that would not allow any territory to become a State if they allowed slavery. Shot down by the southern reps that still wanted slavery.
     
    You asked what was the difference in secession between the States and the colonies secession from England, hardly the same. Don't twist that to say I love war, I don't but I understand that it happend and what was the forces behind it at the time. :smoke:
     
  13. The principle is the same. You can't be against secession as a general principle without also being against the formation of the US by splitting from Great Britain. I never claimed the circumstances of each war were the same, although there are definitely similarities.
     
  14. The principle is no where near the same. :smoke:
     
  15. Of course it is.

    It's a certain group of people leaving a nation and forming a new one. That's the principle. If you agree that people should be allowed to do that, then the South had the right to do it. If you disagree with it, you must also disagree with the forming of a new nation by the American colonies. It's very basic.

    Taxation without representation was a significant cause of both wars.
     
  16. Let me re-state this...
     
    "The civil war, was like England or Britain splitting in two, rather than one of its colonies splitting from it."
     
    And just so you know, I for one, am not always 100% against secession regardless of who is seceding from who lol. If you do your cultural, societal, economical and politcal research you will see why whether you like it or not, America's secession from England led up to you typing on this forum today. It lead to the quality of life you have today.
     
  17. I'm also in favor of America's secession, but unlike you I'm consistent, and so I also believe the South had the right to secede. It's contradictory to be in favor of one and not the other. The consistent positions are to either be against both, or in favor of both.
     
  18. Well I want to be honest and true to what people want, and have a unique solution that is for the best every time. Rather than jerking myself off on how I don't commit logical fallacies or lack consistency. So rather than consistency, I'll say that we had a right to technically "escape" from Europe, and we also had the right to go to war with those rubes who were only supplying America with cheap raw cotton and some other raw materials. Tobacco?
     
    The consistency is only good for itself, the consistency.
     
    However, my 2 choices, seceeding from Britain, then going to war with South, were both better choices for life.
     
  19. i was taught that there were multiple reasons for the civil war, mainly number one being money.  the north had more money, a better infrastructure and ecomony.  the south was farming.  that is what i was taught.  if someone says why was the civil war fought, slavery is not the true cause
     
  20. Ok...
     

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