All Life is Equal?

Discussion in 'Philosophy' started by JesusC, Oct 5, 2007.

  1. Nothing pisses me off more than cruelty to animals....NOTHING.

    What bothers me is that humans tend to look at the life of an animal (no matter what that animal may be) as if its not as important as the life of a human being.

    Nothing or nobody gets to choose what kind of lifeform they will exist as. A dog doesnt have the choice of being a dog, a fish doesnt have the choice of being a fish, and a human doesnt have the choice of being human. The force of life lies within every living creature, and life in and of itself is matter what form it takes on. So why do we value certain lifeforms over others? Shouldnt ALL lifeforms be treated equally?

    I would like for someone to explain to me why the penalties for the malicious murder of an animal should carry more lenient pentalties than the malicious murder of human beings. Explain to me why people who capture and tourture animals should be held to a different standard than those who do the same to human beings.

    Shouldnt every lifeform have equal rights on this planet we ALL inhabit?

    Heres a website I found, but I honestly couldnt make it past the first picture of the monkey being tourtured....that shit just breaks my heart. If you can make it through the whole thing I commend you.

    I'm all for long-term, even life sentences in prison for the tourture and malicious killing of innocent creatures. We all have equal rights to this planet, not just humans.
  2. Yeah but we have souls!!!1!11
  3. Yeah, and God put all the "beasts" here for man's disposal.
  4. Because it simply wouldn't be justice. Any right minded individual will agree that human life is of much greater significance than any other creature's, though I agree that sick minded fucks that get a kick out of torturing animals should be dealt with harshly; not for necessarily the animals sake but for the sake of removing a mentally disturbed individual from society. As long as humans are running the show, animals will be a disposable resource of consumption.
  5. All life is equal, but some life is more equal than others.

  6. .....I completely disagree.
  7. Whats to disagree with? How is an ants life of equal signifiicance to that of a human's?

  8. How is it not?
  9. Because the Bible says so. :wave:
  10. Well, as a sane person walks down the sidewalk and indescriminately kills the ants under his feet he is not even aware that he is taking the life of the precious ants. You probably aren't sane though; do you look out for the ants as you walk? Their is nothing precious about the life a single ant. If you want to compare the importance of your life to that of an ant go ahead... You're fucking loony, man.
  11. Theres no call for that. You barely put forth an argument and call your opponent insane simply cause he disagrees.
    And to you JesusC. The thing that makes man different is that he can think. If that is enough to give him power on a moral scale, well thats a personal desicion. I can talk to other human, fuck with other humans, smoke with other humans, play complex games with other humans. I can do only some of these with animals, and a very limited number of animals anyway. But to add to your question, why not plants? why only animals, plants live as well?
  12. It's probably best to illustrate your point with reason and evidence instead of just calling the opposition crazy. So the question still stands - How is ALL life not equal? Why are we more important? Because we say so? I'm sorry, but that's not good enough. I'd like a well reasoned argument, and I'm sure the other "loonies" would too.

  13. If you could have at least formed an intelligent response to the question I asked, I could have looked past the personal attack.

    However, if you want to lable me as all means go ahead. I dont expect someone of your apparent intellectual stature to even begin to comprehend where im coming from.
  14. I barely put forth an arguement because my previous post should be read with thick sarcasm. This is such a stupid concept that I find the fact that some think it is worthy of debate laughable.

  15. Why does our ability to interact with these creatures even matter? Since "ants" were already thrown into the mix, have you ever actually seen ants interact with eachother? How well they work together? They may not be smart on the "human" level, but they get things done.

    We actually have a lot to learn from the other lifeforms that enhabit this planet, if we would only take a look and realize it.

    I dont believe we have more of a right to exist here, simply because we are the most advanced. Anything that is here at this point in time has earned its right to be. In fact, you could say that there are creatures alive today that have more of a right to this planet than humans do....they have been here for far longer.

    I just think there is a HUGE lack of respect for the other lifeforms that enhabit this planet.
  16. I asked you to elaborate on your assumption and the depth of your response was as shallow as "how is it not?" at which point I couln't help but be inclined to think that your were indeed an idiot. If you could have at least formed an intelligent response to my initial question, maybe then we could have created a working dialog, but after your response, it was evident any attempt at doing so was most likely futile.

  17. You're attempt at "sarcasm" failed. You didnt put forth an argument because you simply dont have one.

    The more you talk, the worse you make yourself look. For your sake, if you cant form an intelligent response just move on. You're wasting space in my thread and im not going to clog it up by making you look foolish time and time again.
  18. As MrBlonde alluded to, religion can play a big role in this attitude, I will not claim it is the sole reason for it, nor will I claim there are not others, but for certain people it is the main cause. I remember hearing a story about these two kids in some town in the States (I think it was on 60 minutes or 20/20) who broke into a cat shelter, herded the cats into a room with only one entrance/exit, and then beat them all to death with bats. The story made me sick, it was cruel to the extreme, if these people had done that to a nursery of babies they would have been killed, provided the State allowed for the death penalty of course. They interviewed some people in the town about the incident, and most of them thought nothing serious should happen to them. One resident even said it was not a big deal because animals "have no souls". It was a common attitude in the town. They got a slap on the wrist, which oddly enough, happened to be the max possibly penalty. Irrationally held beliefs most certainly lead to a lot of harm. We know that animals have the same emotions that we do, it has even been suggested they could quite possibly feel those emotions more intensely than us. We are causing this suffering to beings we know can understand those emotions and realize what is being done to them. If you have ever driven by a truck on the highway hauling pigs, they seem to be quiet and not making much sound. Park next to the truck at a light and it really is not that loud. Drive by them, still in the truck, when they are approaching a slaughter house. They squeal in a frenzy, almost as if they know the end is near. If you think these animals are so beneath us and they are unable to be aware of their surroundings, you are ignoring obvious evidence.

    Look at a dog, this is an animal that can be taught to do complex actions. It can obviously learn. Your behavior towards it can effect its personality, be nice to it and it will be nice in kind, abuse it and, much like a human, it will cower and be fearful, or violent, or both, or show any number of different odd, disorders. The same can be said for humans. A dog would seem able to employ empathy, they tend to know when you are down and try to offer what comfort they can. This shows they are aware of themselves enough to recognize emotions in others. Humans are able to do the same thing. If there are more than one dog, and one of them dies, the other dog(s) will mourn for their lost friend. They will show signs of depression. They are able to comprehend mortality, they are able to understand their friend is dead and will not be coming back. Children cannot wrap their minds around this concept a lot of the time, though, they do quickly learn. Some species have mating rituals that are similar to our own, mating for life (in recent years some of us have changed that ritual, :p), when their mate dies some of them even fall into such a great depression they stop eating and just give up. Humans have been known to do this as well, not always by refusing food, however.

    We look to some of the animals we would consider to be of a somewhat high intelligence, like dolphins and apes to name a few, though there are many animals that show great cunning and resourcefulness. Like the crows that have figured out to use tools (us in our cars) to help feed themselves (by dropping nuts in front of them). Some of them are so specialized they do this feat by stop lights so they have a chance to recover their goods without risking death. But, I digress. Gorilla's have been known to make art, crude by even caveman standards, it would make an abstract artist proud. :p I saw a drawing from an ape named Micheal, it was of his dog, if vaguely resembled it, what was most striking was the use of colour. Although it had a whole assortment to choose from, it only made use of the colour's of the dog, and used them in a way that resembled the dog quite "well" (for an ape, or even a very young child). They used sign language to communicate with the humans that worked with them. Bonobos (a type of Chimp) are highly intelligent, they can understand spoken English, write in the ground to communicate desires, make use of tools, play video games, play crude music, and quite probably have an entire language of their own.

    So, what are we left with that separates us from them? What makes harming them less a crime than harming one of us? Is it the fact that they are not human? What reason is that? What logical justification is there, to subject another life form to that? It is not smart enough by our standards, are we going to experiment on people who are about as smart as an animal? No, probably not. So, then I guess that reason has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with species. So, again I ask, what logical reason is there to base this belief upon? Is it because an animal does not apparently have a soul? I call bullshit. I have shown that everything that is important, its understanding of what is being done to it, the emotion it is feeling while it is happening, and the natural terror it feels when it knows it is about to die, is present in an animal. They are remarkably human, even if they are not out robbing corner stores and building skyscrapers. There is no logical reason to treat animals like inferior beings because they may or may not have something that probably does not exist. Even if a soul does exist, even if an animal did not possess one, that does not justify what is done to a good many of them. We would, after all, be the beings with these wonderful souls, we would seemingly know better than to rain rampant cruelty down upon another form of life just because it is different from us. We would understand that species is a poor excuse for assigning lesser judgments. Killing a baby kitten is the same as killing a baby human. They are both innocent beings that have little understanding of the world around them, helpless to defend themselves. The level of cruelty is the same, and many serial killers started off on animals.

    However, I am not advocating we abandon our use of animals. Every species has a right to use another for its survival. Animals do it without thought when they are hungry. When we can produce something synthetically, we should do so and give up our dependence on that life form. Using an animal to survive is different than killing it to kill it, or to inflict pain, or harm. Species is a good argument for some things, but not to the degree people take it too. We used to treat prisoners no better than animals. Someone stole a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, into the prison he went, chained and beaten and treated like a dog. We, at one time, equated a law breaker with having the rights of an animal, which is to say, none. That was illogical, barbaric, and cruel. At one time, women were nothing but property. We came to understand that those things were wrong and after a battle for change, things finally did. Society held a belief that the majority finally understood to be wrong. It is not hard to believe society holds other beliefs that are equally wrong. It is not hard to believe that society has a lack of an understanding on a subject. It is not hard to believe that this issue is one of them. Animals deserve a level of respect, they are on par with us emotionally, they are aware of themselves, like we are, perhaps not as sophisticated in thought process, similar nonetheless.

    So, no, sorry, I see no logical reason whatsoever to believe that we are superior enough to kill them without consequence. Doing something to an animal should be the same as doing something to a human. If I bash a dog over the head with a rock repeatedly, I should go to jail for murder. If I did this to save my own life, or the life of another, or if I did this because my survival depended on it, or the animal was invading my territory and affecting my life in a very negative way (non harmful means can often times be employed to remove the problem), obviously, no wrong has been committed. Give me a logical reason not to hold this belief, give me a solid argument to believe why I am wrong. I do not believe you can, but if you are able, you shall prove me wrong on at least two counts. ;)

    That is an ad hominem, you should probably try arguing the argument instead of arguing the man.

  19. Dude, great of the best ive seen:smoke: Especially from someone whos "looney". +Rep
  20. What is a stupid concept? That human life is for some reason more valuable because we evolved differently than other life forms? I completely agree. Apology accepted.

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