Greetings again to all... let's get right to it: Growing White Widow, first time for this strain, 3rd grow for me. DW bubble (6 gal res) on RO water only, two bubblers, pump running 4x a day for 15 min (roots are in water 24/7 of course). Using Technoflora RFS, currently 1/4 strength max, ppm running under 400, ph has been 6.0-6.25 by test strip, my ph pen has been questionable (reading varying a lot with same water, does accurately test 4 and 7 solutions when calibrating, after cal it generally agrees with the strips, usually 6.0-6.4 max). Running 150 HPS and two 65 watt CFLs in veg spectrum 20hrs on 4hrs off per day, so plenty of light. Res temps running about 78 degrees or so. These plants are growing better than any others I have grown. Roots are crazy good, no rot, moving the lights up daily, large leaves, rapid growth. However, from the beginning the leaves have been mottled looking... lighter areas of green in no particular patterns and not all leaves. Now however the leaves are getting dry and shrivling up, some cracking if I flex them a bit. Is happening on new growth too I notice on some shoots. No burn on tips (however looking at the pics it appears that way, but not in person... leaves are all green or light green), but the leaves themselves tend to fold upwards along their central vein, while the ends curl under too, and some leaves appear deformed in places. Have also noted redness to the large leaf stemps and on some new shoot leaves that are dying. Since the PPM has been so low I did not think I could be burning them. I think the PH has been correct and not fluctuating much. The HPS has not been too close and my hand does not feel hot under the lights at plant level. Room temps are about 75-80 degrees. I believe I have been careful in diluting my nute concentrations per Technoflora's instructions/ratios as needed to not over do it on these new plants. These girls are only 25 days old and if it weren't for the dry leaves I would not be worried. I have reviewed all the info I could find on nute disorders etc. and can find no other explanation other than nute burn... but how can that be at such a low PPM level.? Insights, observations or suggestions welcomed please! PLEASE NOTE, THIS THREAD WAS STARTED IN HYDROPONICS BUT i NEED MORE INFO/RESPONSES. PLEASE HELP! THANKS!!! Pics, left to right: Shows size of plants; shows curling/cracking; leaves folding up and curling under; mottling on leaves; dry and deformed; more folding up and curling under. Note, pics may look like the leaves are brownish on the edges, but they are not in person, just very dry. Thanks!!!
Are you using any type of mg/cal supplement ? I would invest In ph probe monitor if I were you so you can dial in your oh more accurately, those strips can be hit or miss
Thanks for the reply. I hear you on the ph pen (same a probe monitor, or not?) in that I need to get another one. Last night I decided that my issues were not burn but more likely deficiency, as the stems are red etc which I do not believe can be caused by over fertilizing. So, not having any RO water at midnight, I used tap (145ppm) and did a flush and re-nute to 550 total, so about 400 real and pushed the ph to where it was reading 6.0 on my pen (eventually) and 5.75-6.0 on the strips. They look better this morning. I also moved my fan away a bit. These plants are growing at a faster rate than the other two grows I have done, and the root structure is fantastic. I have burned my plants in the past even with what I thought was moderate ppm levels, and assuming I could trust my ph pen back then I was careful about ph. Maybe these White Widows demand a bit more nutes than I have used before, but I feel better to err with less than too much... but maybe this rapid growth means they need more. One of my last plants (of 3, two got stunted due to root rot) grew to 5.5 feet in my bathtub, but running nutes in the 1000-1100 range burned them towards the end. Anyone have experience with White Widow strains and what they tend to like, or is that seed provider or type of medium/method specific? Regarding mg/cal supp, yes, I am using Magic Cal and others from Technoflora, using their recipe for success in the ratios they recommend and then reduced to (currently) 1/3 strength. I've read that small plants should be 400-800ppm as a general ballpark figure. If they continue to improve over the next couple days, I will likely change out again and use RO water, then aim at 600 or so. Again, please feel free to comment!
Ive had a similar problem before but without the blotching on the leaves. I ran a bubbler just like yours. A couple of things I did to address the problem: I had res temps at 78F just like you. Since you probably have a root ball already in the solution, you don't really need the water pump to feed the top of the plant. Disconnect it. When I did this, it lowered my res temps by two degrees. I used to have my res raised off the ground but then decided to put it directly on the floor to further cool my solution. I also put my airpump on the floor for the same reason. Remember that heat travels up. Second thing I did was to make sure my res was topped off every night after work. Judging by the size of your plants, they are probably drinking 1/2 gal a day. I would also water the net pots manually since I had the pump turned off. Because I ran higher soup temps just like you I knew I had to increase the amount of oxygen in the water. I upgraded my air pump from a 30 gal to a 60 gal and added another airstone. The more air the better. I also supplement 5teaspoons or 25ml of 3% H2O2 to increase the dissolved oxygen and keep the root rot away. I have absolutely no slime in my res. This very low amount of H2O2 will not harm your plants. Not sure if TechnoFlora RFS is organic as I use GH 3 part. If your nutes are organic, of course don't use H2O2 in any amount unless you want to sterilize. My main issue came down to my water quality. I used to use tap water with a ppm of about 150 or so. Again just like you. Not exactly "hardwater". However, it had too much calcium. Adding the tap water calcium with the calcium included in GH MicroBloom, led to NUTE LOCKOUT. Some of my leaves drooped just like in your pictures and were not perky as they should be. All while they continued to grow. In your description you say that you where using RO water until the recent change. Maybe your RO membrane is old and needs to be changed? I would try using the RO water machine at your local supermarket just to see if they perk up. Mine did. The publix near me charges 25cents/gal. If not buy however many gallons of RO purified water you need @ around 80cents/gal. You cannot burn a plant with 400ppms. Its SO unlikely. Instead its probably deficient with a particular nutrient. If in fact you do have nute lockout via the roots, lightly foliar feed them while you correct the problem in your res. They will absorb nutes through their stomata. Lastly, I did see a tiny bit of heat stress on the plants so raise your lights a bit. AND GET A PH PEN! I know you had a bad experience with one, but they are necessary. I use the Oakton PH1, $60 @ amazon. I don't swear by it but it works for me. Thats all I can think of for now. Hope this helps and I will follow through just to make sure your girls make it.
Wow, thanks for the extensive effort! Agree with all you said, and have done some of it already (only RO water from a grocery store refillable system since the start, but last night I decided I couldn't wait so used tap), I've got a bigger air pump running two bubble bars, got the res temps down now to 70-72, etc. I think you are right, and the more I look at the leaves the more I see deficiency, not burn. Ordered a new pen today . Will watch the lights, turn off the pump and see. I need to get more ph down, having to use vinegar right now and experiencing some bounch back... it does work though in a pinch. Thanks!
Hey sorry im late to the show. But it looks like you've got everything under control. Good luck buddy!
Thanks all. For the record, I do believe the plants were deficient, and ph may have been elevated a bit higher than optimum (new pen on its way!). In the lastest photo you can see the size of the plants. They are 29 days post sprout and on my last grow I turned some autoflowering Cream Carmels at 35 days (which did not autoflower!)... two were stunted by root rot, but one reached over 5.5 feet, and two plants anywhere near that size would be too much for my bathtub grow room and lights. Do you think I should turn them now or wait a bit more because of the damage? They are getting extremely bushy, so I plan to cut out some of the damaged leaves, but even then they are sending shoots everywhere and crowding up in the leaf canopy. I'm not set up for a sea of green grow at this point, but I see why people do that! Plan to flush and re-nute again today with RO water, and go 1/2 strength. After talking with Technoflora, they do not suggest adding nutes to an already existing solution as some (boost) need to be added first by themselves, and the solution could already be misbalanced based on what the plants have eaten... guess it is better to start fresh than hurt them any more. Unless someone suggests differently, I am going to veg them another week and turn them. Thanks for any interest and suggestions.
Yeah, I never add nutes to a solution. When I top off the res with only ph'd water. I let my ppms go lower as she consumes water and nutes. And I agree you will create an imbalance if you add nutes throughout the week. Its almost impossible to know what specific nutes she is using and which she is leaving behind. Suggestion I have is to raise the lights atleast two feet away so she will stretch some. This deliberate stretching will help you manage her bushiness.
Glad you resolve your problem, however since GC teach me a lot during the years, I like to give back to GC too. My advice to you for the future. I'm a little anal with Growing (Only with growing) in the little experience I have with Growing Hydro, I notice different strains like different PH range. Just play a little MADScientist and take reading of Different PH's every 2 days. Example maintain for two days your PH at 5.5 (take notes) if you see any noticeable change move up and so forth. I know is a little anal, however "More knowledge is priceless" and I feel once you find that sweet spot is SHOWTIME for her ! Those r my 2 Microcents ! HappyGrowing
I just wanted to point out, and it's just incidental, but the plant in the 4th picture, the more green coloured pic up there...it has a 'cold'. It's a virus that you are seeing on the leaves that have that pale swirly pattern washed across them, they look marbalized. If it spreads, it's not a self limiting one, and will spread to the other. Most are self limiting and the virus goes away like with a human. Some are horrible, keep an eye on it. They are going around right now. If it's a horrible spreading one, and you have to cull the plants, clean your area and stuff with bleach to kill it. Good luck. Remember, most are harmless.
Wow, interesting info on the virus. What ever it is it was on the very first set of leaves on both plants, more on the right than left. It has not returned or continued to a great degree, and both plants are doing amazing now. Funny how different plants can be. These two ladies, white widows from seed, drink a lot more per day than my previous set of Cream Carmel girls even when they were fully grown. I have flippped them to 12/12 after about 5 days of 16/8 and am now into bloom nutes. Got a new ph pen too and after calibration I think my ph may have been running a bit higher than I thought. Got it back down to 5.8, now running my nutes at 2/3 strength, or about 800ppm on RO water. These are much more fragrant than the last girls too, and they are not even flowering yet! Thanks again to all. If I run into any more problems I will post. However, with that in mind, I do have a question: In both of my previous grows the plants have collapsed about 2/3rds of the way through the flowering stage. I was able to salvage them this last time and get them strung back up, but any idea what is causing this? It has happened just out of the blue as far as I can tell. First time I just came home from work and found them down, and they had to be harvested. Second time I was gone on vacation and came back to find them down, but it must have just happened and I was able to save them. The stems were all quite stout with lots of roots of course, but in the system I use the baskets can shift and pivot. Any input?
When plant run out of available phosphorus, the stems become weak. They use a phenomenal amount of phosphorus from transition to mid flower, then the pottasium becomes more needed and the P less. If these weak stems become dry and the plant has a low stem tugor pressure from a lack of water, the weak stem just suddenly crumples in half.
Greetings all... once again need some advice. I need somebody to tell me if this is burn or deficient. I am about 2 weeks into flowering, last nute change I went full strength, ppm running 1350 or so (1600 at one point when they drank a lot), before that was running 3/4 strength (Technoflora Recp for success) with ppms about 1000. Ph has been generally OK, usually between 5.8 and 6.3, had two dips in the past week that I catch within a day to 5.3-5.6. White widow from seed. See first post for system/set up. This seems to happen to me when I get into flowering and despite looking at all the pics n tables I can find I really just need somebody to say "based on my years of experience that is... blah blah blah..." Pics show what has happened to some fan leaves in the past week (blotchy), some droopy newer and older fan leaves, one plants buds are "stunted" vs the other and not as "furry" or growing as well... Just did my 7-10 day flush, running 3/4 strength today on R/O water, ppm 1000, ph 6.25. Feedback GREATLY appreciated! Pics 1 and 2 show blotching; 3-4 show drooping; 5-6 show difference in buds one plant to another.
What size light do you have? How far away is the light? How often do you add nutrients to your plants?
My best guess from the pics would be a nutrient deficiency, I can't tell by the shade of yellow but if it's really a light yellow then you may not be giving your plants enough nutrients.. If they get real dark and browner and the leaves kinda curl then your giving em to much, but I cant tell the shade of yellow because of your light..
Calcium and phosphorous deficient/unable to uptake due to ph isse at root zone...based on years of experience and all that What ya feeding them things right now?
Thanks for the quick reply! Running one 150 HPS, and two 65 watt CFLS, not getting hot. I change nutes about every 7 days. Just completed 3rd week of flowering. Some of the leaves are drooping and are quite green, others are doing this mottled crap. Those tend to be the larger fan leaves, 3/4 of the way up the plant and near the top (see new pics with better light). I did have some issues earlier with this strain regarding mottling on the leaves (see earlier posts) so I don't know if some of the leaves are more sensitive to over nuting or deficiency than others. Don't see a lot of red stems etc. Ph pen has been calibrated and working well. In my last grow the main fan leaves near the tops got very burned and crisp, and it seems like they are headed towards that again. I keep the HPS light up and it is about 6 inches above the tops of the plants, not hot to my skin, the CFLS are always cool and within a couple inches, not causing problems. Thanks again!
Was posting while you were... I'm feeding based on Technoflora's recipe for success, so what ever they suggest. I am in hydro, using RO water. I did have some low ph a couple times as noted earlier, but most of the time it has been 5.8 to 6.2 (currently 6.25 after nute change today, put some ph down but have not rechecked yet... the aquarium stuff doesn't work real well I've found but it was all I had on hand). I can, if needed, add MagiCal to increase cal and mag, not sure where the phosphorous is in the various bottles I have... Thanks!
Bump, still havin problems. What is causing this? Sorry to be such a nube but I gotta start somewhere... thanks. These leaves are 3/4 of the way to the top. The little bud fan leaves are drooping. Did nute change the other day, ph running 5.9 w/ calibrated pen (has been consistent), ppm 1010 this morning.
You know sometimes when you are in the middle of a problem, you don't 'see' it, and someone else does. Osub pegged the 'reason', ph or solution makeup. I pegged the missing nute that is supposed to uptaken or supplied. It's harder for you in hydro, it makes you responsible for all of the plants needs, and there is nothing for the plant to eat located anywhere in the matrix(no soil) because you are fully bottle dependant. Since the company's liquid you are using is supposed to have all the stuff that they need in it, lets assume it's all in there, and just not being taken up. I personally think that they are usually missing lots of stuff, but that's debatable. Anyway, if it's there, and the plant can't use it, it's ph related. Plus some of your leaves are starting to taco, a sure sign of the plant wanting the ph to be lower. I would recalibrate the pen, and drop the ph 5.5 for a few days to pick up some micros in the 'soup', and then let it drift to 5.8 and no farther. If the plant hates that, then try another companies nutrients I think. Look at the new growth and bud formation only now, the old leaves will continue to deteriorate and fall, they don't 'get better', they stabilize at best. Freak calls that Battle Scars.