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Activating THC in oil?

Discussion in 'Weed Edibles' started by peacelovep0t, Jan 2, 2013.

  1. Bks could explain the science better than me, but the two processes are in competition, and solvation outcompetes the Decarboxlyation.

    Decarboxlyation has been found to work much better in air than oil. And coming from a person who is studying biochemistry, I can say that is what happens.

    I'm glad you do question the science of it though, there is a ton of pseudo science and misinformation. Paleos thread is a good example of that you're right. But Bks does have the science and data to back up it up. She is just much better at explaining it than I ever could.
  2. I really hope she sees one of my questions. I tried sending her a PM so i could understand this process better but her box was full. If someone knows the answer it's definitely her.

    Do you happen to have a source showing air-decarb to be superior to oil-decarb (assuming both are exposed to the same amount of heat over time)?

    I'm a biochem student also :hello:

    Just want to clarify something. When i said there's a lot of pseudo science and misinformation surrounding the process of making edibles, i didn't mean BKS. Her guide and information seems incredibly precise.
  3. #23 BadKittySmiles, Jan 5, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2013

    I'll try to make it as easy to understand, as I can, while trying not to be too inaccurate in any terminology (as a result of simplifying things). :p

    Oil hinders especially decarboxylation, and degradation in general, or slows its pace at virtually any given temperature, for the same reason that a jar preserves your herb, by slowing the rate of degradation, and for the same reason why the center of a ball of hash can last almost perfectly for years, while the outer shell slowly becomes impotent.

    When oxygen contact is hindered, the speed and rate of chemical reaction and decomposition of chemicals and organic substances, decreases at varying rates depending solely on their specific reactions with oxygen and the volume of byproducts they must produce, in the form of solids or gas, in the process of degrading or converting from one chemical to the next, and when sealed off from cyclic oxygen-exchanging environments (and especially when sealed almost 'perfectly', as is the case with oil, which is why we use certain oils for preventing rust under our cars ;) ) you can preserve things for an especially long while, in and out of heat.

    Consider that dried herbs used for cooking, even stored in jars, are thought to lose potency over the course of a scant few weeks, or months (if you're a semi-professional chef, who uses dried herbs, that is... in a household, most people should replace jarred/dried herbs before a year) depending how frequently you open them, and that they last longer, the longer they are kept sealed, but a bottle olive oil with italian herbs can remain flavorful and potent for many, many years, even after the seal has been broken.

    It's why clarified butter lasts longer, than common fresh or store-bought butter, even when some or many of the milk solids (which cause spoilage) remain. The oxygen/water contents have been purged.

    It's also why canna oil and clarified canna butter, both last longer under the same conditions, than cannabis flowers.
    (If you opened both the oil, and the flower jars, the flowers would begin to deteriorate at an exponential rate, while the majority of the oil in the first jar, would go on to remain preserved almost as though it were still sealed, in comparison.)

    (And it's why canna butter made without clarifying, will spoil first both in terms of rancidity, as well as in terms of potency, long before canna oil or clarified canna butter. :D )

    And it's why decarbing beforehand, can save you hours of time when making oil, and why it will give you the same, or greater potency, with more control over the finished product, in much less time. :hello:

    But wait, there's more!

    Now, saving time is great and all.... but it isn't even the main reason you should be decarbing first.

    When true cannabinoid conversion occurs, from THC to CBN, or THCA to CBNA for instance, these conversions produce fewer byproducts than decarboxylation.
    Converting from THC/A to CBN/A is less reliant on oxygen, and it is less reliant on the 'ease of release' of any gases and solids, because they produce fewer byproducts in volume, that must be released during their conversion. When a molecule of THC becomes CBN, the structure is modified in such a way that requires less 'expelling', than actually removing the carboxyl group during decarboxylation.

    The conversion of each cannabinoid to the next or its 'metabolite', and the rate of decarboxylation, all occur at varying paces, in part because they interact with the open environment differently from one another, and they purge chemicals in varying volume during their structural changes, and decarboxylation purges and reacts the most in an aired environment.

    And where byproduct production generally either does not, or only hardly occurs during cannabinoid conversion (when compared the carbon dioxide released during decarboxylation, which can actually produce visible bubbles in oil when it occurs), by -instead- ensuring that the material has decarbed in contact with air, BEFORE reaching the oil, it spares the additional hours it otherwise takes to expel that carbon dioxide, and as a results prevents and limits cannabinoid conversion, which can gradually create CBNA, from THCA before decarboxylation can occur.

    This is why when herb is jarred up, and stored properly, the levels of both CBNA -and- THC will rise, as the THCA content drops. And if herb is instead left out in the open air, or when it is placed in a food dehydrator, it is why aside from losing *terpenes, the carboxyl group will begin to dissipate more rapidly, while CBN and THC formation will continue almost as it was before, at only a slightly increased pace.

    (*Which is why we seal our containers, so valuable chemical vapors may settle back into the flowers or oil.. never fear, the carboxyl group does not magically re-attach!) ***

    The more challenging it is for the carboxyl group to become detached and released, the more the gap between cannabinoid conversion, and decarboxylation, narrows during cooking, and the less control you have over cannabinoid content of the finished product. And if you're not causing your cannabinoids to 'vent off' they will become bioavailable and bond with your oil quicker, and more reliably, than if you were to still be breaking that bond with the release of carbon dioxide towards the end of the process.

    You don't want to take hours decarbing in oil, because you're going to wind up with a lot more CBN and a lot less THC by the time you're done, than if you'd instead decarbed quickly, beforehand!

    If you decarb first, you have the choice to continue cannabinoid conversion, as you see fit. :)
  4. I've found this quite interesting, as I never considered there to be any issues with activating THC in the boiling pot. Perhaps in future I'll do a 'dry bake' first.

    I wouldn't doubt your experience with cooking, BKS, but I thought about some of the reasons you suggested for why this is happening, and I'm not so sure. Specifically in terms of there being a need for oxygen. While oxygen is indeed required for the oxidation of metals or butter, I don't believe it plays any role in decarboxylations (specifically thermal decarboxylations). I know that decarboxylations can occur happily in solvent in other cases, and are almost always performed under a nitrogen atmosphere, as per standard protocol.

    So I looked into other possible reasons for why activation of THC doesn't play out as well in oil as it does in the raw cannabis. Found a guy's masters thesis where he found that the process is solvent dependent; the rate increases linearly with increasingly polar solvents, and is particularly slow in the case of non-polar solvents. Could just be that solvent effect slowing things down.

  5. Remember to read the remainder of the post, the lack of oxygen contact in and of itself isn't the primary reason for the delay, nor is it the main concern, the varying rate of and control over cannabinoid conversion is also at play, and the gap between the two (decarbing and converting for instance THC/A to CBN/A) changes with the environment. :)
  6. And they said you wouldn't use science for the rest of your life...
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Let the ganja sit in the oil for 2 weeks. strain then cap it. Take about 10 pills of it and you'll be STONED.
  8. So uh... The moral of the story is...?

    Just kidding. Hopefully I will follow through with this tonight. I plan on getting the coconut oil VERY hot in the microwave and then mixing with some iso hash oil and then swallowing via caplet.
  9. Careful, don't forget the actives in cannabis can boil off. I'd recommend an oven or something where temperatures are controlled/you can monitor them.
  10. Sadly I don't have access to an oven. :/ I can measure the temp of the coconut oil after it comes out though.
  11. 10 of anything will get anyone stoned.

    If people would take the time to read BKS's sticky thread, follow the DIRECTIONS as she has written you will NOT fail. Make it easy on yourselves and read her stuff. Or you can just experiment and hope you hit one that works.
  12. ineed the temp/time or whatever is needed for oil to activate. following rick simpsons directions but never caught this info. cooking now...
  13. Decarb at 240 degrees for 40 min.
  14. ok, after i cook the solvent away, its dafe to put in oven? only way i have of getting to 240 for that long
  15. What stage in the process are you?
  16. h
    ha, just boiling off the last of the solvent
  17. i tried to get a pan of water to 240 on the stove but cant. oven is all i got. is that safe?
  18. how do i find it?
  19. BadKats CannaPharm: Medical Grade Oil, Cannabis Capsules, UV GLOWING Hash Candy, Canna Bombs more
    Kats thread but it's a bit large and can be challenging to find stuff in.
    Hash Master 5000 - Dry Ice Method, Hash Oil Capsules, Everclear Tincture
    Mines only 13 pages and covers making RSO in more detail.
    Decarb material first 240 F for 40 minutes. Oven work. Toaster ovens work just fine for this and can be found at thrift stores for chump change. Even new ones are only about 30 bucks.
    Freeze weed and 190 proof drinking grade alcohol
    Combine and shake 30 seconds
    Strain with potato ricer taking care not to let the tincture contact skin.
    Reduce with fan to tar. No heat needed or really wanted at this stage. ( I use a still to recover the alcohol from this stage)
    Mix tar with equal amount of coconut oil and a dash of lecithin to both make it easier to handle and increase it's bioavailability.
    I do use heat for this stage, 220 F for 20 minutes or longer if you have foam or lots of bubbles coming off the oil. Means there is still water or incomplete decarb so heat until all reaction stops.
    I usually capsulize the RSO as it's really bitter and the taste doesn't fade very fast either.
    Start with a few drops per cap say 5 drops and see where it puts you. Can add or reduce the dose just by short filling the caps. Makes dosing easy.
  20. quick though, can i decarb the already made oil in the oven? safe?

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