A philosophical conundrum that is frequently brought up is that free will cannot exist because every decision you make is the result of your experiences, my decision to write this post is based on my experiences up tot his point in my life and I could not possibly have made a different decision given my experiences up to this point. Your decisions are, in this sense, predetermined. There is nothing you can do to change this fact, anything you do to try and change it was a decision you were predetermined to make anyways. I am here to propose a solution to this uncomfortable truth by asking some more questions: what is exactly is the self? What is the agent that you want to be making free decisions? Are you your brain? Are you a conscious decision-making agent inside the brain? What are you, the decision maker, if not a sum total of experiences? What is the conscious being you want to believe is making your choices if not the amalgamation of your life experiences? The conscious mind is an interaction between the current experience and an agent trying to decide how to react to the current experience. The agent that reacts is the conscious self, is it not? So the agent that makes a choice is in fact the part of the mind weighing past experiences and making a choice. So yes, your decision is predetermined by your experiences but when you think about it, what else did you want it to be? People present this conundrum as being forced to act a certain way by the agent in your head that weighs past experiences but who are you if not that agent? What entity is it you wanted to be making a decision on free will?
Yep, these have been the questions I have been asking myself a lot lately. Free Will? Maybe but who is that agent? Lately I have been calling him Jesus bc tbh? It makes more and more sense as I pass through life. Among other things? This crazy world is too much to handle on my own. But who is Jesus? I have explored the atheist argument by imagining (there's that word again!) The original human beings. They're just waking up to this powerful world, this planet Earth and they are overwhelmed. Wtf is this power? Wind? Rain? Cold, then beautiful sunshine and warmth? Wait, why is that light so bright I can't look at it? And what's with that other light I CAN look at, when the sky goes dark? What ARE these things and who is making this happen? Oh wait, it's the women! Check her out, her belly's getting bigger, she's carrying human life! Of COURSE she's making all this crazy stuff happening outside, she CREATED this world! LOL okay so maybe nobody really said that but there is that account of a feminine Goddess when humanity first came here bc of women giving birth. I think for awhile no one even knew about sperm and men's parts in reproduction. Anyway this is relevant to your post believe it or not bc that agent inside us telling us what to do...at least imo? Is a subconscious reaction to those in authority, be it parents or more powerfully, God. Humans were so overwhelmed by the power of Earth they invented a separate being, separate and more powerful than them that they had to allow to tell them what to do. Pretty humble in a way! They asked for help. But depending on our lives, how stressful they may or may not be compared to ancient times before we could buy our food without killing something ourselves, etc.? There are many things we can handle on our own depending on individual strength and ability. But then there is still that agent giving us messages when we're about to make an important life decision or whatever else. Maybe it is really all us, our brains and all the power they have. Either way, free will, I think, happens when you're sure of something and feel a sense of freedom from knowing that what you're about to do is the right thing, the best thing. When we're not sure if a decision is right for us, that's another matter. But all in all? We are not going to be sure of everything all the time. I think that is why the agent shows up, be it our higher minds or some deity who watches over us lol. Or just a subconscious reaction to a past experience when we were not sure of ourselves and depended on someone else to guide us. We have free will to figure this out though! Hope that makes sense. I'm high and it's early morning lol. Good thread though!
Think of it this way... There are Infinite paths you can take in life, infinite forms or characters you can play and life roles you can take, and that is your (free will). Now on a grander scale, ALL those paths, characters, plays ect... or Infinity... is ultimately part of ONE greater divine path or map AKA Divine Order or Will. So the answer is always both. Like a maze.. starts from one point, turns into many paths, but all ends up point again.
if you can contemplate your own existence, certainly you must exist. discretion of choice limits by our own individual and collective perspectives continuous moment of now- spent into void
I listen to many great thinkers every day. Sam Harris, Robert Sopalsky, Richard Dawkins… many others. They have convinced me that free will is a myth. It starts right from birth. We don’t choose anything. Our skin color, our culture we’re born into, our parents and family… we chose nothing. They then push their beliefs on us, and we’re like 6 years old so we agree. We don’t know shit so what are we gonna do? Argue? No. We go along. We’re put in a school that we didn’t choose. We have a pool of approximately 20 children to make friends with. Our parents push their religion on us… our schools push their agenda on us. I finally woke up at the age of 50 (I know… way too late) and realized it was all bullshit. We have 100 billion neurons in our heads, and we control none of them. Our brains just do what they do, and our bodies react. We react to stimulus. That’s all we do. The concept of free will doesn’t even make any sense. We think something, and that thought came out of nowhere. What else could it do? It comes out of nowhere, and then we act on the thought. Every day, anyone can see evidence of free will being a complete fallacy. A person drives home from work and decides to start cleaning the kitchen. Why? She could have decided to start a meal, or do some laundry. Maybe she gets a call from a friend and is told that a friend died. Now she’s crying and she can’t focus on anything. Depression sets in. She starts drinking. She gets in her car and gets a DUI. Or kills someone. We just react to outside stimulus. That’s all we do. The following month her husband finds a tumor on his arm. He goes to the doctor and is told he has cancer. He dies 6 months later. Where’s the free will? We know that intelligence is at least 50% genetic. Free will? Really? If you’re born into a dumb family, you’re behind the 8 ball right from birth. Free will is an absolute myth. The biggest of all time. We are a collection of atoms, and we are on a roller coaster just trying to enjoy the ride. We can’t control anything, we don’t know what’s going to happen next. It’s an adventure, and all I can do is hope that the people closest to me are enjoying it as much as I am. Peace!
A philosophical conundrum that is frequently brought up is that free will cannot exist because every decision you make is the result of your experiences, What about split decisions,where you act then think.
Okay maybe I don't know everything there is to know about everyone's situation, but I certainly don't think we can choose our parents and make rational decisions as a child...no. The long and short is, just bc we don't have free will regarding EVERYTHING that happens to us does not mean free will doesn't exist. There are things we CAN control, things we CAN think for ourselves about. Someone calls, tells you a friend died? Does that mean you HAVE to get drunk, get a DUI and kill someone? Uh...no. No. No, someone has the ability to CHOOSE to stay alive and comfort the family of that friend, NOT just be selfish and drink, drive and kill someone else! Lol. If there were no free will there would be no choices ever. Choices exist, therefore free will exists.
The person getting drunk after hearing the bad news was just a hypothetical example. Chain events like that happen every day. Every second actually. Choices do indeed exist, but that’s not proof of free will. We react to stimuli. We have no choice but to make choices. How much free will does a schizophrenic have? He thinks the president on TV is talking to him. He hears voices that aren’t real. How much free will does a person have that suffers from crippling anxiety? Or chronic pain that keeps her from doing anything. It’s so bad that she spends most of her days in bed. Where is her free will? We make choices that are based on our past, and we control nothing. I didn’t choose to like my wife when I first met her 24 years ago. I just did. I was working one day and I was transferred to a different department. There was this girl there and we started talking. Twelve years later we got married. At one point I wasn’t sure if she was the one. At one point later on, she nearly dumped me. Things could have happened so differently. We were in control of nothing. Things happen, and we react. We make choices. We try to deal with each situation the best way we know how. Every event is just the result of a previous event. Look back at your life and tell me it’s not. When you make a choice, why did you decide to do what you did? The next time you go to make a meal, observe your thoughts. What are you going to make? Why did you choose that? Why didn’t you choose to make Thai food? Why did you choose fish and not chicken? I hate onions. I wish I liked them because I always have to avoid them like the plague because I abhor them that much. But I didn’t choose to dislike them. A child is born with autism. How much free will does he have? Another child is beaten by his drunk father every day. Later on he seeks refuge with heroin and becomes addicted. He battles addiction for 25 years. Where is his free will? I’m sitting here typing into a phone trying to explain to someone whom I’ve never met why we don’t have free will. Why am I doing this? On that note, I’m gonna go smoke up. I wish you peace and happiness.
Thanks you too lol. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Can't say it any better than that. You don't have to be sober to appreciate that either lol.
The lack of free will makes life pointless. Actions pre-determined by experience are only one piece of the puzzle and amounts to simply a reflex. This eliminates independent thought as a determining factor in our lives. Without independent thought there is no possibility of advancement as a species. We would have responded to the same experiences, in the same way, over and over again. The industrial revolution indicates to me that we think, change and grasp for whatever our imaginations want to chase. Free will does exist. To believe otherwise is the most pessimistic of attitudes.
That’s your opinion, and I can respect it. However, there is much good that can come from people accepting the lack of free will. When we (we as in humans) believed that witches caused the bad crop season, we burned them at the stake. Through science, and a better understanding of the world, we realized it wasn’t the witch. We used to think that the schizophrenic person needed more religion in his life. Now we know that it’s an actual illness. When a psychopath kills a family of four, do you really believe he had the free will to not do that? To act otherwise? If he did, then why didn’t he? Surely he didn’t plan, as a 6 year old boy, to get sexually molested on a daily basis. Surely he didn’t plan to be locked in his bedroom for weeks at a time. That psychopath acted just like a psychopath acts. We lock them up because we can’t cure them. But can you really blame him for losing his mind? When we create a pill that cures psychopathy, should we NOT give it to him? Is he too “bad” for us to treat him and cure his illness? This belief only strengthened my empathy for people. I still carry on with life just as I did before except that I don’t blame people for who they are. I don’t hate anyone. They can’t act any other way unless someone or something reprograms their mind. Psychedelics need to be utilized. Unfortunately, mankind has made them illegal. That needs changed ASAP.
There are times some humans are completely overpowered by something but I believe we are still accountable for our actions. It's not about the blame game or just putting it entirely on someone else bc we're all responsible for our reactions, unless we really can't help them. Without accountability, no one would be able to function. I hear what you're saying on a spiritual level regarding reactions...yes life is a chain reaction one after another. We react, but we can actually choose NOT to just blindly react. Unless we are shot with a gun or something, in which case we have no control over how we react. What you're talking about imho has very little to do with lack of free will. You're talking about humility. Life will humble us and no we can't stop that, of course we can't. Hell a lot of free will crap does depend on circumstances, sure it does! Having free will doesn't mean we can end world hunger in 5 minutes lol but if we see a hungry child on the street, it doesn't have to take 5 minutes just to hand them something to eat unless we have to go buy it first. I guess the way I see free will is not based on concrete events that happen in life, cancer, winning the lottery...I see it as a feeling inside me. A feeling of understanding of my life. I have a choice. I can either see my upcoming 57th birthday as a curse or a blessing. I have a lot of challenges which might make a lot of people terrified, frozen in fear, angry, intolerant, suicidal lol...but I choose to see it as a beautiful adventure. Be well and happy if you wish!!! . Much respect to you!
As I just did. Very nice. Sometimes debates get heated and buttons are pushed but the best part of that is like you said, things are explored, opened up, we hear something different than the normal everyday stuff we're used to. I never explored the "no free will" thing until this thread and others so it is a trigger...but then I was raised an atheist and am still trying to understand spirituality. We know what we know but it's always nice to explore new ideas. Anyway be well, smoke one for me!
So in your view, is the observer a helpless/passive observer? It seems easy to imagine things that don't comport with the notion that people lack free will. That isn't to say there are no grey areas between heavily influenced thoughts or barriers and things like creating novelty in music, inventions or abstract concepts like metaphysics. Taking cold showers is horrendous, every fiber of your being questions your sanity and attempts to steer you away. I'm not really completing my thought, just dropping this here to see how you respond.
Yo! I hope you’re having a good start to the week. I’m on a crazy sleep schedule; it’s 5:32 AM EST and I can feel myself getting foggy. Gotta crash soon! Even in the case where someone invents something, she is fortunate that she, for some reason, thought about the concept in the first place. Why did she? How fortunate is she that she was born to the right parents, with the right nurturing and support afterwards? How fortunate is she that she wasn’t born in poverty? Or born with some horrible birth defect? We know that roughly 85% of the time, when someone is born into poverty, they continue it through adulthood. I play blackjack and I’ve made a good chunk of change. I will make more. But it’s not because I’m super intelligent or special. I was just lucky that I decided to learn the game. Why didn’t I just focus on starting a career as a nurse? Or a plumber? Why didn’t I choose craps instead? I can’t even tell why. I have no clue. Many people never find a passion. Why? I don’t know, but I’m sure there are many reasons. Are they lazy? Dumb? No. Not at all. Depression, anxiety, cancer, lack of opportunity, low self esteem… the reasons are many. However, I feel it would be preposterous to assume that they’re just not good at anything. The neurosurgeon didn’t become a neurosurgeon just because he’s highly intelligent. He surely is intelligent, but he also had help. For starters, he probably had parents that were completely devoted to raising a child. He didn’t grow up trying to figure out where his next meal was coming from, like so many children do. He was born with a high functioning brain that he didn’t choose. It’s pure luck. He then did what he needed to do in college and no doubt worked his ass off, but again, he didn’t get where he is without a massive amount of luck. And that can be said of EVERYONE. The people that are struggling to a great degree simply weren’t as lucky. Then there are people that didn’t even live to see their 25th birthday. Starvation, cancer, accidental death… Every day roughly 18,000 children die of starvation. Every. Single. Day. Thank you for commenting. Your post made me think. Peace my friend! I gotta sleep.
Just off the top of my head, he could use free will to decide NOT to go to the doctor. We ALWAYS have choices in life. We honestly DON'T have to do what anyone tells us. Of course there are consequences, so yeah, we have free will.
You make a valid argument for free will. Couple thoughts. I locked my keys in my car a few years back. People do these things all time. Call it absent mindedness. There is certainly no evidence of free will there. So an event such as that obviously changes everything. I call the cops. They get my keys out. I am driving away at 6:00 instead of 5:30. I get hit by a drunk driver and die trying to get home. I’m just in the wrong place at the wrong time because I locked my keys inside my car. I didn’t decide to do that, and the events unfolded until I met my demise. I pulled out in front of a car last week. I was pulling out of a parking lot and I have no idea how I didn’t see him coming but just a fraction of a second later and I’m T-boned by a 2 ton piece of metal on my driver side. Could have so easily died. Luckily he wasn’t going too fast and he was able to stop. Charles Whitman shot and killed 13 at the University of Texas after killing his wife and mother. He previously went to the hospital because he reported having homicidal thoughts. The doctors found nothing. After he killed himself they found a note he wrote. He wanted them to look at his brain. Upon inspection, they found he had a glioblastoma pressing up against his amygdala, the organ used to modulate fear, logical thinking, etc. He literally was a victim of biology. The tumor turned him into a killer. There are other documented accounts like this that I could bring up but… you get the point. Your opening post is solid, and got me thinking. And it’s actually hard to argue. The self is making decisions based on past experiences, and YOU are that self. YOU are the 100 billion neurons in your head. You are the entity reacting to stimulus, hence, you are the entity making free decisions. I’m done. Gotta smoke. Peace!!
