Abortion?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by WeSmokinSowa, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. I was wondering if some blades could post thier position on abortion, even though its a personal question.

    I personally feel that taking any form of life is morally wrong, because i am christian. But i feel like making it illegal is also wrong. Just because one particular religion says that it is wrong, does not mean that no one should be able to get an abortion. Rape victems clearly deserve to have safe abortions, beause chanecs are if it were illegal they would search for an illegal abortionist. IMO its a matter of seperating church and state... i was wondering if i could get some feedback
     
  2. I've never understood the "well its okay for rape victims" argument from the pro-lifers. If you're against abortion, shouldn't you be against it in ALL cases? Abortion is abortion.

    Anyway I think a woman should be able to do whatever she wants with her body. It's not the government's business.

    And taking a life? Kinda hard to take a life of something that isn't alive yet... Might as well make masturbation illegal too. Or condoms and all other forms of birth control.
     
  3. yeah thats true, i agree with almost all of those points, except for one. Its hard to judge whether or not a fetus is alive... so maybe its not yet capable of concious thought, but it will be in 2 months etc..

    But yeah i feel like abortion should be a question of morals, not a governmental issue
     
  4. You can't legislate morality. Even if abortion is illegal, it's gonna happen. So the whole debate is moot in my opinion.
     
  5. You make some good points, one being that if abortion were illegal than it would most likely drive people looking for abortions underground and probably making it less safe, etc. I also like the fact that you recognize that while your religion may be against it, it doesn't mean that everybody should follow that way of thinking. But if abortion is a matter of morals shouldn't it be left in the hands of the individual? We all have different beliefs and what we think is moral and not. Neither the government nor the church are great at defining what is moral and what is not imo.
     
  6. First, google abortion videos.

    View them.

    Then understand how a baby develops, functions and reacts while still in the uterus. A baby 12 weeks after conception displays all of the same body features and functions as that of a full term baby, except smaller.

    I used to be pro-choice, and believed in the it's a “woman's body” thing, no more after understanding how an abortion is performed and the baby's awareness and reaction to the event. It was extremely unnerving to come to that realization. View http://www.silentscream.org/video1.htm There are several clips and it is a bit dated(1980s), and the first one has an overly dramatic opening, but be sure to view the one where they actually show the ultrasound images of the baby as it is being aborted. Watch it's reaction before it gets torn apart, which if you don't know, is how they do it. It is of a 12 week fetus. Physicians do now treat the fetus as a patient.

    With all of the people in this country who cannot have children and are willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars to adopt, I no longer can understand abortion except to save a mother's life. Heck, that mistake one night stand could be like hitting the lottery for a couple of months of uncomfort. In the case of rape, that is murkier for me personally, as I would not be able to comprehend the feelings a woman must endure knowing that a criminal had done it to you and his genes are part of it and you had no choice whatsoever in the matter, so I guess I would understand that as a choice.

    Though, I am confused by those who have children yet are pro choice, after having looked into their own babies' eyes moments after birth, it doesn't compute. Further, the majority of “hippies” and peace lovers I have discussed this issue with are pro choice. That stance completely flies in the face of their own avowed doctrines of peace, love and happiness for all, since the baby didn't get a choice. It is a complete contradiction in what one stands for. As for those who are religious, well, if you are a true believer in whatever religion you claim to be a part of, you would be in violation of it's first and most important tenet.

    What the government needs to do is develop more programs to provide support for unwanted and unplanned pregnancies. Planned Parenthood is all too accommodating for those who come in requesting one. I know, my sister ran one for 4 years.

    Someone mentioned that you cannot legislate morality. Then why are hate crimes penalized at a higher level? Why am I not able to shoot a random person because my morals do not recognize the sanctity of life? Because, We hold certain truths to be self evident. Our fore fathers developed this government to protect the individual from undue harm caused by others. Since many do not rely on religion to make judgements in the matter of state, then what about science, that fully treats an unborn baby as it's own entity now?

    Just something to think about, and be thankful that your mother did not make a choice.

    peace, and go hit that pipe!
     
  7. Pro-choice. Because a baby is not a baby until it can survive (breathe/digest) on its own outside the womb.
     
  8. This is my favorite argument of them all.

    Somehow I doubt if my mother chose to abort me, I would care or even be aware of it...
     
  9. I'm very pro-choice. I understand that while some people may subscribe to certain views because of their religion, or how they personally believe, THEY can choose not to use abortion, however, please don't take the right to choose away from me. What I do and the choices I make, belong to me and me alone, and chances are you'll never know me, so don't tell me what to do.

    Most abortions are not done after the first trimester because of how developed the baby is, and when they are done, they are typically MEDICAL abortions, which means that the mother's life is in serious danger. Those are the horrible abortion pictures that you see and the videos.

    I think that some things need to remain personal, and this is one of them. While I respect everyone who is pro-life and their opinions, I would hope they could do the same. Bringing a life into this world is a big commitment that not all of us are ready for, as is sex, however, both of those things happen even to the best of us.

    I know I probably won't be checking back into this thread, this is such a hot topic and everyone has different feelings, but those are mine...
     
  10. I was a mistake, and I came very close to not being brought into this world. However, if my mother wanted to continue to lead the life that she did when she got pregnant, I wouldn't blame her if she were my friend.

    I get to live a life, yes, but how do you know when a soul starts? Is it when we can remember? When we recognize? The moment our cells divide? Nobody knows that ...
     

  11. Apparently the supreme court judges do!
     
  12. That's only because they think they know everything. :rolleyes:
     
  13. At some point, a person does have to understand there are consequences for their actions. We live in a time, when everything has a quick fix for a perceived inconvenience. Abortion has become the failsafe to certain behaviours and inconvenient situations without the broader thought of one's place and their role in the "karma" universe.

    This may be too personal a question, so I apologize in advance sincerely, but your revealing of your situation leads me to inqure if you have talked with your mom as whether she regrets her decision.

    Since you are talking souls, it is at the exact moment of conception as defined by all Christian religions. I don't know about how other religions define it though, and could be at birth for some I would imagine.

    I am not here to judge anyone else's beliefs, just expressing my own and have a thought provoking discussion on a highly sensitive and controversial topic.
     
  14. #14 CosmicSerpent, Nov 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2008
    Abortion is an issue in which the legality of it shouldn't really matter. If someone is personally against abortion, then they won't get one whether it's legal or not. If someone wants to get an abortion desperately enough, then they'll get one whether it's legal or not. The law itself accomplishes very little.

    I think the best solution is neither to ban abortion completely or legalize it completely. It should only be legal during the first trimester of the pregnancy. I'm not saying that there's any way to determine when a group of cells definitively becomes a human being, but a practical cutoff point must be set. For a woman to go three months without realizing she's pregnant is extremely rare. I also think there should be a mandatory 48 hour waiting period on all abortions, except when the mother's health is in immediate danger.

    The bottom line is that we shouldn't impose our morals and personal beliefs on others. When someone believes strongly enough in something, a law against it isn't going to stop them from doing it. I believe suicide is immoral, but that doesn't mean a law against it is going to prevent anything. A lot of people believe smoking weed and doing drugs is illegal, but that doesn't mean a law is going to stop them from doing it. What will happen when abortion becomes illegal? Will government and law enforcement start keeping tabs on all the pregnant women in the country? Will women have to go to court when they have a miscarriage or complications during birth to prove that they weren't trying to give themselves an abortion on purpose? Seems pretty ridiculous.

    Edit - I'd just like to add that I would never want a woman pregnant with my child to get an abortion, and I would never advise anyone to get an abortion unless it was in a case of rape, incest, or a threat to the mother's life.
     
  15. #15 looper, Nov 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2008
    I would think and hope you are correct about most of the video footage showing the rather large babies being medically necessary to save the mother's life type of abortion. As they are truly appalling, but it was that footage of the first trimester ultrasound that really made me think about my position.

    But, what about the thought that even if it's done in the first trimester, that that embryo becomes a fully formed fetus, then baby shortly thereafter? That's the part I struggle with. I mean, everyone knows what happens when you have sex, and what can happen even if you take precautions. I just think that it is glossed over in many people's minds as the mistake can be "erased". I just have a very hard time with it when you see little month old babies smiling and interacting, when they weren't even conceived but months ago.

    I agree that if abortion were made illegal, it would not stop it. I actually don't know the whole pro life agenda and all of that, I just consider myself as pro life since I love kids(to the assholes: save all of the child molester cracks, I used to teach pre-school and loved watching them explore and learn and the joy they received from just playing). But, I would think that the step to make it illegal would be the least of the worry. It would be more in attempting to get people, all people, regardless of religion, to view pregnancy as sacred and wonderful regardless of it's origin. This of course, will never happen as it would be akin to groupthink in today's society. When you actually get groupthink sometimes, it can have bad consequences, such as the bombing of abortion clinics which completely undercuts their position.
     
  16. I won't deny that some people use it as a form of birth control, which is not what I would ever personally do, but what about when the condom breaks or the morning after pill fails? I understand that there are consequences for all actions, but I don't believe in making an innocent person (unborn baby) suffer if someone is not ready to care for them.

    It's not too personal of a question, and nobody knows who I am so it doesn't really matter, but yes I have talked to my mom about her decision. She told me that in the beginning there would be times where she would be so frustrated that she did regret having me. She also told me that when she decided to keep the me, she knew the path that she was going down and accepted that no matter what happened it was the path she chose.

    I don't know when I believe a soul is created, I mean, I just can't convince myself that something living inside someone that looks like an amphibian has a soul yet. I know that may be cold, and it will turn into a person, but I don't know, looks like an alien to me. And I don't think that cells have souls, so I don't believe it's at the exact moment of conception, but when it is, I don't know.
     
  17. So do you pro-choicers think the government should pay for abortions?

    Isn't that part of the problem, that pro-lifers don't want to subsidize 'murder'?
     
  18. I don't think it has anything to do with the government, other than it should be legal and a private matter. Do I think the government should pay for them? Not unless it's in the case of rape, incest or medically necessary.

    In the case of you're not ready yet, then you can pay for them yourself. I've never heard of government sponsered abortions, unless you're on state medical insurance, and that's fine, I wouldn't be pissed they were paying for anything else medical.

    The definition of MURDER has nothing to do with abortion. Actually the term is fetuscide, which is where a fetus is killed, but if the baby can breath outside of the mother's womb and has a probably chance of survival and it's killed, it can be charged as murder.
     
  19. Yea, those " ' " symbols indicate the popular religious right's terminology for foeticide, not my belief.

    If the voters of a state wanted to subsidize abortion that would be perfectly legal.

    But the Federal government subsidizes PPFA (Planned Parenthood) with hundreds of millions of dollars a year, a lot of which goes back into lobbying.
     
  20. I assume that the fetus becomes a baby somewhere during the early to mid part of the pregnancy; nobody truely knows the exact time this happens. I am against late term abortions, but believe women should be able to decide on whether or not they want to terminate their pregnancy in the early stages.
     

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