I had a dream that the devil decided the fate of each age, through the choices he made. Thing was, he died at the end of each age, but at the beginning of each, one would rise to take the devils place. But at the sixth age, the devil that rose, finally made a righteous choice, his choice was to end the cycle of ages, so that there would be a pure Heaven age for eternity. But at the cost of his own life. You see, I walked through the ages in that dream. And I noticed that each was different, from the first to the ongoing. But as the saying goes, history repeats itself. Same characters different dramas. But the devil saught to end the cycle. So history no longer repeats itself. Rather history becomes history. And bliss becomes forever.
Definitely an interesting idea especially if one knows the more truthful yet Gnostic tellings of Lucifer. If you don't know much there's an angelfire website that has something to do with the joy of Satan and actually had some surprising information about God's right hand man.
I still don't see a legitimate basis for a separate being outside of gods will existing and having power, known as Satan. In regards to you dream though, do you believe this dream to be true or are you just sharing? I believe most dreams are extremely symbolic and have a completely different meaning than what is being viewed.
Satan isn't a being outside of God's will. If you know about reality Christianity, Lucifer (not Satan -- Satan is a made-up word) is a being that is just as powerful, if not more powerful, than God himself (God, who's real name is YHVH or Yahveh). The Christian God is not the all-power supreme architect/being of this universe. The Christian god is a lower-case g god; a deity. If you read Genesis in its original form, Yahveh speaks many times to other beings. He also blatantly says that after Adam and Eve ate "of" the Tree of Life (which is also referred to as the Tree of Wisdom) that, if they were to but partake of the tree again, that they, too, would be either as God, or know right and wrong as God does (depending on which translation you read). Examining the actual story of Genesis and the "original sin," Lucifer actually did nothing wrong. Indeed, in reading Genesis, the snake is never actually referred to as anything except shrewd (aka clever). The snake also does not deceive Eve at all. The snake tells the TRUTH -- it is God that lies. The snake's only transgression is that what he says was contradictory to Yahveh...
[quote name='"Kroovy"'] Satan isn't a being outside of God's will. If you know about reality Christianity, Lucifer (not Satan -- Satan is a made-up word) is a being that is just as powerful, if not more powerful, than God himself (God, who's real name is YHVH or Yahveh). The Christian God is not the all-power supreme architect/being of this universe. The Christian god is a lower-case g god; a deity. If you read Genesis in its original form, Yahveh speaks many times to other beings. He also blatantly says that after Adam and Eve ate "of" the Tree of Life (which is also referred to as the Tree of Wisdom) that, if they were to but partake of the tree again, that they, too, would be either as God, or know right and wrong as God does (depending on which translation you read). Examining the actual story of Genesis and the "original sin," Lucifer actually did nothing wrong. Indeed, in reading Genesis, the snake is never actually referred to as anything except shrewd (aka clever). The snake also does not deceive Eve at all. The snake tells the TRUTH -- it is God that lies. The snake's only transgression is that what he says was contradictory to Yahveh...[/quote] alm to forehead: Satan has been called Satan many times in the Hebrew Bible, Lucifer or the devil idc we know what were referencing. Lucifer is a concept made up of by Jews in the Hebrew Bible from even older Jewish faiths. It is a symbolic figure of human temptations, and in the Hebrew Bible is painted as a prosecutor for God, always testing man's soul. But Satan is just a symbolic figure, there is absolutely nothing about in te Hebrew Bible the shows the devil as being some alternative God that's more powerful than the God of Abraham. What you describe sounds more like a comic book than a religion. The God of Abraham, who has many many names besides Yahweh, is the most powerful God. It "took over" from all the other gods. But this is also symbolic of the common form of Judaism becoming the only form. There use to be different Semitic religions and thus different gods, but eventually the religion of Abraham won. Which is why in the Hebrew Bible gods is said to have said that he is the greatest/strongest and commands none others to be worrshiped. Where do you get the basis for any if your ideas from? Original sin is not even supported, its just the Christian interpretation. Jews and I believe Muslims don't believe in it
The word Satan is never mentioned in the Bible. Lucifer is, as in the name of a being that is presumed to be an angel if you follow the gnostic tellings of Judeo-Christianism. But Satan is never mentioned, and that's what I was talking about. As to everything else you say, what is the point? If you're talking about something that was based on religions that came before Judaism then why are you contesting if the Jewish God is the ultimate God, let alone that Satan is a being outside of God's will that has power. And on top of that, sources please? Everything I said to you that you claim sounds like a comic book is directly from the Tankah. Please site some sources for all of YOUR information and perhaps we can have a discussion.
Cool stuff man, I'll look into it. Well if Satan or Lucifer, had the ability to end God's will over himself, so that he could make his own choices, then I do see him having power at least in the sense wherein anything he does has a domino effect, and maybe he has realized it. As for the dream, it was a little bit of both, I believe it has meaning, and I just wanted to share, to see what others thought...
[quote name='"Kroovy"'] The word Satan is never mentioned in the Bible. Lucifer is, as in the name of a being that is presumed to be an angel if you follow the gnostic tellings of Judeo-Christianism. But Satan is never mentioned, and that's what I was talking about. As to everything else you say, what is the point? If you're talking about something that was based on religions that came before Judaism then why are you contesting if the Jewish God is the ultimate God, let alone that Satan is a being outside of God's will that has power. And on top of that, sources please? Everything I said to you that you claim sounds like a comic book is directly from the Tankah. Please site some sources for all of YOUR information and perhaps we can have a discussion.[/quote] Where in the tanakh does it say "Lucifer" is a being of power greater than God. Where does it say God is a lower level deity, where does it proclaim the religion of Abraham to be polytheistic? You haven't shown any sources, that's a lie. I'm not the one who brought up other gods, YOU did. You said the Christian God is a lower level deity , which implies there are other gods. I explained what you referring to and explained the symbolism of mentioning other gods in Genesis. I also said that the God of Abraham is said to be the strongest in Judaism, contrary to what you claim. I bring up the sources of the subjects were speaking about because that clearly the only way to give accurate meanings to the words or phrases. If your going to say that the devil mentioned in the new testament is a supreme being, you should have proof that that's actually the intended meaning. In the book of job, along with other books lucifer is called Satan. Infact I'm pretty sure most of the time he is called HaSaTaN, which translates to The Satan.
All from Genesis: Genesis 3 1Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say: You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?" 2The woman replied to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the other trees of the garden. 3It is only about fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said :'You shall not eat of it or touch it, less you die.'" 4And the serpent said to the woman, "You are not going to die, 5but God knows that as soon as you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like **divine beings who know** good and bad." 6When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they perceived that they were naked; and they sewed together fig leaves and made themselves loincloths. 3:22And the LORD God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!" 23So the LORD God Banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which he was taken. 24He drove the man out, and stationed east of the garden of Eden the cherubim and the fiery ever-turning sword, to guard the way to the tree of life. 11:1 Everyone on earth had the same language and the same words. 2 And as they migrated from the east, they came upon a valley in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 They said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and burn them hard." -- Brick served them as stone, and bitumen served them as mortar.-- 4 And they said, "Come, let us build a city, and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for ourselves; else we shall be scattered all over the world." 5 The LORD came down to look at the city and tower that man had built, 6 and the LORD said, "If, as one people with one language for all, this is how they have begun to act, then nothing that they may propose to do will be out of their reach. 7 Let us,* then, go down and confound their speech there, so that they shall not understand one another's speech." 8 Thus the LORD scattered them from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel, because there the LORD confounded** the speech of the whole earth; and from the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth. * = one of the many references in which God speaks in a plural sense, as if implying there are more than just him. There is never a definitive answer on who God is speaking to. ** = this is actually a play on words. The Hebrew word for confounded is balal, which is a play on the Hebrew name Babel which today is often referred to as Babylon. Now provide your sources... I'll be waiting...
[quote name='"Kroovy"'] All from Genesis: Genesis 3 1Now the serpent was the shrewdest of all the wild beasts that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say: You shall not eat of any tree of the garden?" 2The woman replied to the serpent, "We may eat of the fruit of the other trees of the garden. 3It is only about fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden that God said :'You shall not eat of it or touch it, less you die.'" 4And the serpent said to the woman, "You are not going to die, 5but God knows that as soon as you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like **divine beings who know** good and bad." 6When the woman saw that the tree was good for eating and a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable as a source of wisdom, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave some to her husband, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened and they perceived that they were naked; and they sewed together fig leaves and made themselves loincloths. 3:22And the LORD God said, "Now that the man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever!" 23So the LORD God Banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which he was taken. 24He drove the man out, and stationed east of the garden of Eden the cherubim and the fiery ever-turning sword, to guard the way to the tree of life. 11:1 Everyone on earth had the same language and the same words. 2 And as they migrated from the east, they came upon a valley in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 They said to one another, "Come, let us make bricks and burn them hard." -- Brick served them as stone, and bitumen served them as mortar.-- 4 And they said, "Come, let us build a city, and a tower with its top in the sky, to make a name for ourselves; else we shall be scattered all over the world." 5 The LORD came down to look at the city and tower that man had built, 6 and the LORD said, "If, as one people with one language for all, this is how they have begun to act, then nothing that they may propose to do will be out of their reach. 7 Let us,* then, go down and confound their speech there, so that they shall not understand one another's speech." 8 Thus the LORD scattered them from there over the face of the whole earth; and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel, because there the LORD confounded** the speech of the whole earth; and from the LORD scattered them over the face of the whole earth. * = one of the many references in which God speaks in a plural sense, as if implying there are more than just him. There is never a definitive answer on who God is speaking to. ** = this is actually a play on words. The Hebrew word for confounded is balal, which is a play on the Hebrew name Babel which today is often referred to as Babylon. Now provide your sources... I'll be waiting... [/quote] Lucifer is called Satan all the time btw. That'd usually what he's called Your firstp quote clearly shows God having power over Satan. He created it. It also shows Satan acting as a prosecuting attorney, tempting man, not some king of the underworld. That is pagan The other doesn't prove or imply other God's. "Let us" would much more easily be interpreted as Gods workers, like Satan & other angels nd shit. There's no evidence for the Abrahamic God to be weaker than satan, ill provide specific quotes where God says he's the ultimate. In this quotes Satan is receiving permission to go "attack" jobs mind and soul. Satan works for god, part of him.like everything else "And the Etrnl said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth Gd, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered the Etrnl, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Etrnl said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. [Job 2:3-6] " "Set thou a wicked man over him, and let Satan stand at his right hand. When he shall be judged, let him be condemned, and let his prayer become sin. [Psalm 109:6-7]" God sending Satan to TEMP man. Satan is not his own power, but an extension of God God is responsible for everything. "I am the Etrnl, and there is none else, there is no Gd beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Etrnl, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Etrnl do all these things. [Isaiah 45:5-7]" http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/explanation7.html Genesis doesn't prove original sin either, in your quote adam & Eve were kicked out because they were going to eat from tree of life..that means they were mortal from creation, death wasn't caused by their mistake
Almost everything about Christianity is derived from Paganism... "Christmas is an attempt by Catholicism to revise and adopt this paganism. In the year 525, a Scythian monk named Dionysius Exiguus visited Rome. He witnessed the ancient pagan celebration of the winter solstice (then called Paganalia or Saturnalia), and this offended his devout sensibilities. Scripture itself demands that we observe the Messiah's death, not His birth. But, since the pagan mind was so oriented around fertility and birth, it developed the way we see it today, blending the most important features of pagan interpretation. "Babel, the Great Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth" -- has intoxicated the masses, and she herself is drunk with the blood of the set-apart ones. What is her name? It's Easter! Semiramis, Nimrod's mother, became known as "Magna Mater", the "Great Mother", and was worship-ped as Mother Earth. The Sun "mated" with the Earth each spring, and the "Rites of Spring" symbolized by the "May Pole" and "Easter" came 9 moons/months before the December 25th "birth" of the winter Sun. Her Assyrian name, Ishtar, gives us the word "Easter". The Romans called her Astarte, and the Phoenicians used Asherah. The Hebrews called her Astoroth, the consort of Baal. Her emblem is the flower of the lily. She is the "goddess of the dawn", and her statue stands on a bridge in France. The French made a colossus of this image, and it now stands in New York Harbor, facing "East" -- in itself a word referring to the rising son/sun -- from which her name springs!" You read from a corrupted fan fiction Bible. I bet King James. The REAL Tankah does not say Satan, it says The Adversary. AND get this: Job 1One day the divine beings presented themselves before the LORD. The Adversary came along with them to present himself before the Lord.... 3 The LORD said to the Adversary, "Have you noticed My servant Job? There is no one like him on earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and shuns evil. He still keeps his integrity; so you have incited Me against him to destroy him for no good reason." 4The Adversary answered the LORD, "A skin for a skin --all that man has he will give up for his life. 5But lay a hand on his bones and his flesh, and he will surely blaspheme You to Your face." 6So the LORD said to the Adversary, "See, he is in your power; only spare his life."...... 10But he said to her, "You talk as any shameless woman might talk! Should we accept only good from God and not accept evil?" For all that, Job said nothing sinful. And even your Isaiah quote is corrupted JUST enough to change the meaning. For instance, the Lord says that he creates light and darkness, not THE light. There is a much different implication as the end-all be-all. He says there are no other GODS but him. Well of course, because he's a jealous god and doesn't want any others worshipped but him. I mean he already tried convincing Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree (to gain kundalini power) so that they would become immortal like him... Now, for the last time, provide some damn links to SOURCE your information. This false fan-fcition-based information you're giving me is not credible and is not from the REAL BIBLE.
[quote name='"Kroovy"'] Almost everything about Christianity is derived from Paganism... "Christmas is an attempt by Catholicism to revise and adopt this paganism. In the year 525, a Scythian monk named Dionysius Exiguus visited Rome. He witnessed the ancient pagan celebration of the winter solstice (then called Paganalia or Saturnalia), and this offended his devout sensibilities. Scripture itself demands that we observe the Messiah's death, not His birth. But, since the pagan mind was so oriented around fertility and birth, it developed the way we see it today, blending the most important features of pagan interpretation. "Babel, the Great Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth" -- has intoxicated the masses, and she herself is drunk with the blood of the set-apart ones. What is her name? It's Easter! Semiramis, Nimrod's mother, became known as "Magna Mater", the "Great Mother", and was worship-ped as Mother Earth. The Sun "mated" with the Earth each spring, and the "Rites of Spring" symbolized by the "May Pole" and "Easter" came 9 moons/months before the December 25th "birth" of the winter Sun. Her Assyrian name, Ishtar, gives us the word "Easter". The Romans called her Astarte, and the Phoenicians used Asherah. The Hebrews called her Astoroth, the consort of Baal. Her emblem is the flower of the lily. She is the "goddess of the dawn", and her statue stands on a bridge in France. The French made a colossus of this image, and it now stands in New York Harbor, facing "East" -- in itself a word referring to the rising son/sun -- from which her name springs!" You read from a corrupted fan fiction Bible. I bet King James. The REAL Tankah does not say Satan, it says The Adversary. AND get this: Job 1One day the divine beings presented themselves before the LORD. The Adversary came along with them to present himself before the Lord.... 3 The LORD said to the Adversary, "Have you noticed My servant Job? There is no one like him on earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and shuns evil. He still keeps his integrity; so you have incited Me against him to destroy him for no good reason." 4The Adversary answered the LORD, "A skin for a skin --all that man has he will give up for his life. 5But lay a hand on his bones and his flesh, and he will surely blaspheme You to Your face." 6So the LORD said to the Adversary, "See, he is in your power; only spare his life."...... 10But he said to her, "You talk as any shameless woman might talk! Should we accept only good from God and not accept evil?" For all that, Job said nothing sinful. And even your Isaiah quote is corrupted JUST enough to change the meaning. For instance, the Lord says that he creates light and darkness, not THE light. There is a much different implication as the end-all be-all. He says there are no other GODS but him. Well of course, because he's a jealous god and doesn't want any others worshipped but him. I mean he already tried convincing Adam and Eve not to eat of the Tree (to gain kundalini power) so that they would become immortal like him... Now, for the last time, provide some damn links to SOURCE your information. This false fan-fcition-based information you're giving me is not credible and is not from the REAL BIBLE. [/quote] Dude wtf are you talking about? The fuckin Hebrew Bible has been transcribed nearly flawlessly. Jews don't use the new king James version because KJV includes the new testament, which Jews don't follow. And now your bringing Indian religions into this "kundalini" powers shit. Really how the fuck do you keep on criticizing me for not having proper sources when you still haven't proved where you base your made up theories that the truth in Abrahamic religions are that A) Satan being more powerful than God B) Satan is some comic book king of the underworld superhero C) Abrahams God is low level God D) Abrahams God is a jealous God. Where is the website that your quotes are taken from the you claim have the "true " words?? I know Christianity has many pagan influences but its based off Judaism primarly. Your random quote from who knows where does prove anything. Your version of quotes which are just longer and rename satan dont disprove the point that Satan is working for the lord. God created everything according to Abrahams followers, good & evil. Including Satan. He destroyed the ancient gods. But they are just symbols. Why do I need more points, you haven't disproved any of mine yet. All your doing is arguing irrelevancies I don't get why your so stuck on the true name of Satan, you first said Satan is never used and the name is Lucifer, then you say the adversary. In the Hebrew Bible the name is Hasatan. Which in English is Satan. The word means opposer or adversary. I don't get your point in saying Satan is a false name over and over. Just show me how there's multiple gods and how Satan is its own entity. How original sin is true, how hell is real. The Bible is very figurative bro. And sorry for how chopped up the post is..on my phone
God may have greater power in terms of moving earth and water but in comparison to a relation with humans Lucifer plays a much greater role on how humans behave. I would say that overall the influence of Lucifer is greater than Yahveh. So many people blindly follow out of fear. In the Hebrew Tanakh published by the JPS it doesn't say Satan, it says The Adversary. This is meant to imply a dualistic role with Yahveh. That is where all my quotes come from. And to answer you questions: A) Satan being more powerful than God I've already showed that God speaks to The Adversary (Lucifer) on an equal level and also has not the power to stop Lucifer from harming Jobs even though Jobs is a faithful servant. Lucifer also has greater overall influence on humans in modern times because fear is more prevalent than love of Yahveh who we can see from his track record has a history of fucking with humans, all the way from Babylon to modern time. B) Satan is some comic book king of the underworld superhero Never said he was. You were the first one to say this or imply it and have no basis to say it came from me, nor reference. I believe that Lucifer is a 5th dimensional being locked into a 6th density controlled by Yahveh. We've never touched on this apart from talk about deities. I also never associated Lucifer with the underworld. If anything Yahveh is the closest to a devil -- purposefully confusing people to stop competition, purposefully lying to stop personal evolution, destroying entire cities, and oh wait... flooding the Earth... C) Abrahams God is low level God See above. Never said he was low level. Higher than Lucifer, but Yahveh is not the Supreme Architect. He is not The Self, manifested. The True God is a consciousness that encompasses our existence and isn't present in an individualized form and is sufficed to energy. This is what almost any mystical or esoteric society believes.
[quote name='"Kroovy"'] God may have greater power in terms of moving earth and water but in comparison to a relation with humans Lucifer plays a much greater role on how humans behave. I would say that overall the influence of Lucifer is greater than Yahveh. So many people blindly follow out of fear. In the Hebrew Tanakh published by the JPS it doesn't say Satan, it says The Adversary. This is meant to imply a dualistic role with Yahveh. That is where all my quotes come from. And to answer you questions: A) Satan being more powerful than God I've already showed that God speaks to The Adversary (Lucifer) on an equal level and also has not the power to stop Lucifer from harming Jobs even though Jobs is a faithful servant. Lucifer also has greater overall influence on humans in modern times because fear is more prevalent than love of Yahveh who we can see from his track record has a history of fucking with humans, all the way from Babylon to modern time. B) Satan is some comic book king of the underworld superhero Never said he was. You were the first one to say this or imply it and have no basis to say it came from me, nor reference. I believe that Lucifer is a 5th dimensional being locked into a 6th density controlled by Yahveh. We've never touched on this apart from talk about deities. I also never associated Lucifer with the underworld. If anything Yahveh is the closest to a devil -- purposefully confusing people to stop competition, purposefully lying to stop personal evolution, destroying entire cities, and oh wait... flooding the Earth... C) Abrahams God is low level God See above. Never said he was low level. Higher than Lucifer, but Yahveh is not the Supreme Architect. He is not The Self, manifested. The True God is a consciousness that encompasses our existence and isn't present in an individualized form and is sufficed to energy. This is what almost any mystical or esoteric society believes. [/quote] "This meant to apply a dualistic.." no it is not. HASATAN is the Hebrew word, which is Satan, the words definition in English is not exact. Many use adversary as many use accuser or opponent. Judaism does not believe in any other deity besides God. Satan is a symbolic Figure testinh humans, God USES satan to prosecute man. Satan doesn't have own power, What evidence do you have that more people are fearful today? If anything more people are researching themselves instead of believing in things that make no sense...like multiple gods and a king satan A/B)You have gave ZERO quotes saying that Satan is his own being. God COMMANDS Satan in to mess with job, but not to kill him. Satan doesn't command God. You described Satan as his own being, which I called the "comic book" view. Satan is a part of God, just like everything else. There is no evidence in the Hebrew Bible for Satan being separate. Which is why I posted the quotes of Satan getting permission to attack job, and God acknowledging he created evil along with good. The stories in the Bible aren't literal, no humans are being fucked with today. Satan in itself has no power, because Satan is just an extension of god. C)You specifically said in a previous post that "the Christian God is a low ranking deity" You have ZERO evidence for that aswell. You can't justify the God of Abraham not being the supreme God because you interpret the Christian God as different than Buddhism. The Jewish & Christian Bibles are figurative. The God in the religions of Abraham is the only God they believe in, you have ZERO evidence for other gods. There is only one God, with multiple perspectives, multiple religions. I don't get how if your a theist, you think there can be all these other gods. You need to provide a basis for your opinion if you want it taken seriously ..