99.9% free market

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Gooch_Goblin69, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. if you really don't like the fact that the little boy down the street is working, find out if wants help and help him yourslef

    do not steal from me in the name of social welfare to give to him and do not forbid anyone else from working who wants to work
     
  2. :wave:
     
  3. rothbard is my hero

    mises.org just had a sale for lvm's birthday and i ordered 'man economy and state'
     
  4. You know the site offers a free pdf version right?

    Maybe you're like me though, I actually like to have a hard copy.
     
  5. yeah but it's like 1500 pages i'd rather have that in front of me

    lookin for economics 101 in mp3 tho
     
  6. #66 Kylesa, Oct 4, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2009
    Yea. Mises.org is a fucking badass site, there's so much on there. I don't have enough focus to read a .pdf, I need a book in front of me, there's way too many distractions at the computer for me to actually sit down and read something that long.

    If you have an iTunes Store account, you can check out iTunes U, and various colleges around the US put their classes online in mp3, or even video format, and you can download/watch them. You probably will find tons of Keynesian bias, though. There's also a ton of lectures on YouTube from the Mises YouTube account. There's hundreds of hours of lectures available. I especially love Doug French and Bob Murphy, they're entertaining and easily understandable. LVM is such a great resource.

    This video is a pretty good starter, it doesn't get into too much detail, it's more of a comparison between endogenous and exogenous economics, and is delivered by the always awesome Bob Murphy.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qArpSSmmFJw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qArpSSmmFJw[/ame]
     
  7. Well, there is a Nazi party in America. I wouldn't support them because of their views, not what was done in the past. Plenty of socialist nations have murdered millions of people but that doesn't stop people from advocating socialism. Other than the murder of millions of people, there are many views adopted by Nazi's that people today would embrace. Nazi's stood for nationalism, the expulsion of illegal aliens and non-citizens, welfare for the old, sick and poor, ending child labor, abolishing taxes on land, national education program, freedom of religion, the nationalization of most industries and the redistribution of corporate income. They even believed that money earned through interest was wrong and wanted to abolish that.

    As for your view that it was the "norm" of business of offer script that could only be used in company stores or not getting paid for injuries at work you are patently wrong. That was hardly the norm in any society. It was only in a few places that people worked in company towns, normally mining or logging areas. And even company towns were killed off by market activity. I would argue that 99% of people were paid in cash, went to local markets and shops, ordered from mail order catalogs or whatever they wanted to do with their money. I'm not sure how you got such a perverted understanding of history but perhaps you should go back to check your facts. If you could, since you insist it was the norm, please provide me with something, anything, that demonstrates that every single worker in 1870's were abused by their employers. That is what you are suggesting, and since that is your claim you need to back it up. Otherwise get off this because you aren't helping your case.
     
  8. We never said nothing would go wrong. There would still be people that commit fraud. There would still be companies that screwed over their workers. There would still be poor people. Our argument is that, while these things will still happen, their bad effects can be greatly reduce through free market competition without any barriers placed on market actors. While these things happen now they are made worse by government rules and regulations. Good companies are often punished by the government with heavy regulations, driving them out of business. Bad companies are reward with taxpayer subsidies and bailouts. The poor are made poorer by means of government fiat money, heavy taxation (on employers and themselves), limited access to jobs they might need (minimum wage and regulations on business).

    In a truly free market economy you cannot have one company or organization grow so powerful that they can take over an entire segment of the economy. The rules of division of labor, scarcity and market competition wouldn't allow for it. It's called consumer choice. Consumers will not continue to do business with an entity that is abusive. For example, if AT&T were the only cell phone provider in the nation and they started jacking up their rates and delivering poor service another company would start up to address that issue. Either that or people would stop using cell phones and AT&T would go out of business. The only time you can have an abusive monopoly over anything is when government does something to create the situation, either through directly granting the monopoly or regulating competition out of existence. Whether you grasp it or not you are participating in the market every day. Every day you choose to use one company over another. When that company doesn't live up to your expectations you find another. This is the magic of free enterprise. You are in control, not corporations or the government. You make the choice and no one else.

    Except if you live under a socialist government who caters to whoever has the most money. Then you have the problems you talk about.

    If a child goes out to mow a yard for $25 willingly whose rights are violated? If a child would rather work than go to school then who is violating the rights of the child? If I as a business owner hire an 8 year old kid to sweep my back room and take out the trash what business is that of yours? No one is being exploited. It is a mutually agreed to arrangement. I get my backroom swept up and the 8 year old earns enough money every week to buy a video game.
     
  9. Because todays capitalism flies in the face of the main pillars of true free-market capitalism. Property rights and natural rights are huge parts of capitalism, and today's politically correct version of corporatism reflects a very watered down, corporation-based capitalism, and not actual capitalism. People like to cite corporations as uber-capitalist institutions, when in reality, the free market is the enemy of the corporation, because it's very hard and requires constant innovation to have a true monopoly in a true free market. Under today's corporatist system, all a company has to do is pay lawyers and lobbyists, and they can 'stay on top', no matter how bad of a service they provide.
     
  10. "Look, I should not walk, so a child may live!"

    -Master Shake
     

  11. If you want 8 year olds to serve you, go to Africa.

    In what warped fantasy world do you live in where this is a mutually beneficial arrangement? There's a reason why it's not allowed in any civilized country. Children are easy targets and it's easy to take advantage of them.
     
  12. How is this a warped fantasy? I've been working since i was 10 years old. During the summer months I would mow yards to buy things I wanted. I earned about $300 a month during the summer. Do you know what a 10 year old can do with $300 a month? Anything they want. A neighbor of mine had me help him out every once in a while and paid me. There is nothing wrong with employing a kid to do some work every once in a while. It might do them better to get a job instead of sitting around on their asses all day playing video games and watching TV. We might even have a better work ethic in this country if we allowed the kids that wanted to work to work. Exactly how is it a bad thing if a kid decides to take on a job to earn a little spending money? If that is what they want to do then why not let them?
     
  13. 8 year olds are bad what about 9 year olds? 10? 11? who is gonna decide? you? by what standard? stop trying to play god. if you want to help children i welcome you to go try but please leave me and my freedoms alone
     
  14. Ok so

    how will some one surive on a less than current minimum wage in this country. A one bedroom apartment costs atleast $300 a month so at $5 an hour thats 60 hours of work just to have a place to live then food which can cost atleast $300 a month then gas to get around so mabye $100-150. So those costs total $750. So if they work 40 hours a week thats $800. The person saves $50 a month, which if you were very frugal would be alright but what if there car breaks down and they have to repair it, their fucked, how they gonna pay. What if they break their arm or get sick, no health insurance they gotta pay for that, which also stops his flow of income and possibley leads to them being fired because why would the owner of the bussinesws employ someone who can;t work? and what is this person expected to work all his life? No retirement benefits?

    Unions are what has insured the american worker has had health insurance(not just for him his whole family) retirement benefits (my father worked the same union job for years, his knees are destroyed from years of hard labor, do you advocate leaving the old to die because they can't work anymore?) and has had job security when injured and unable to work. Why do you think unions formed in the first place, not because of the government, so the workers could fight back against corporations that won;t pay livable wages. Unions are not bad, they are an instution of the people and have helped the workers.
     
  15. have you ever considered You don't understand Psycology? A profession I am trained in. People will fuck each other over over the smallest things sometimes. You have to take that into account when considering any human system.

    Whatever lets agree to disagree. But lets all get high:smoke:
     
  16. Wow. You're finally starting to understand what we are talking about. Why you continue to insist that people will earn less money without a minimum wage is beyond me. What you have just demonstrated is why wages will not fall below what is needed to survive. This is called the free market. People will naturally demand a wage that at least keeps provides for the barest of necessities. Employers will offer those wages, or higher ones, to attract good workers. I want you to use your critical thinking skills for once. Why would an employer only pay $5 an hour when everyone else is paying more? Do you seriously think someone is going to work for that amount? A person might take it but leave as soon as they find something better.

    Stop assuming that just because there is no mandated minimum wage that all wages will drop to some incredibly low level. That isn't going to happen because market conditions wouldn't allow for it.

    No, you're wrong again. Health insurance, pensions, disability and other such programs came about because of World War II. During the War the government set price and wage controls. Since employers could not offer higher wages they began offering better benefits to attract more qualified employees. The National War Labor Board ruled that benefits, such as pensions and health care, did not violate the wage restrictions the government placed. After World War II ended people became so accustomed to having employer-sponsored health care that they demanded the coverage stay around. Of course it didn't take long for the government to stick its greedy little paws into that industry, regulating the hell out of it and jacking up the cost.

    Yeah they did a bang up job bankrupting the American automotive industry and driving manufacturing jobs overseas by forcing companies to pay wages that were out of sink with actual market wages.
     

  17. Sitting on their asses all day playing video games??? 10 year olds should be in SCHOOL. How's that for a crazy concept?

    So... great for you. you had a a neighbor who cared about you, and let you help him out for money. Are you truly so ignorant that you think that all kids will be as lucky as you? That 10 year olds won't get taken advantage of??

    You seriously sound like a spoiled brat who has no idea what the world is really like. Yeah... child labor. It's all about fun and games and getting new video games. Holyfuckingshityouareretarded.

    What about 10 year olds being forced to go to work because their parents are too lazy? Or 10 year olds being forced to work because they are cheap labor? 10 year olds dropping out of school because they want to work instead.
     
  18. Are you truly so ignorant that you think 10 year old don't get taken advantage of now?? Are you truly so ignorant that you think education can only be administered in the cookie cutter manner we've been fed for years despite increasingly better and newer technologies?? Are you truly so ignorant that you think free market principles come down to luck rather than self regulatory incentives?

    :wave:
     
  19. #79 mscbuck, Oct 5, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2009
    Wow, it seeems that absolutely no one here realizes such thing as upward pressure on prices and wages (which does exist). The concept of comparative advantage, quality, and profit guarantee upward wage pressure in a completely free market. Anybody who says "well wages will keep going down because there will always be someone willing to work for less" clearly is ignorant to the point of pig-headedness, and clearly has an incredibly elementary understanding of Economics. If you were just willing to go a couple steps further, and expand it to a macro level where every business is suddenely paying 1 cent for labor, you'd see that statement is a completley impossible event. It cannot happen and a business would not thrive in that environment.

    Most of the time, it's not even in the best interest of the company to try and hire low skilled workers JUST because they are willing to work for .01 cent.

    Also, people seem to have a problem understanding that you know what, a lot of people probably don't even "deserve" the minimum wage they get for the work they do. Ever hear of marginal productivity of labor. If you want an example, just look at auto-union workers, and you will see how absurd their pay is for the "work" they do. There's nothing wrong with paying people exactly what they produce. Competition alone would make their wages high, as cars are becoming increasingly an inelastic good.

    If you did take an Economics class, you would see about how absurd the whole minimum wage actually is. The next argument is then "Well Economics only works in a perfect world! Blah blah blah!". I agree to an extent. The problem is, in a perfect world, we would have a completely free market economy would be present. So when we make these arguments, we are arguing that with a free market, these law's of economics actually do apply, which is why we should strive towards one. In a perfect world, Say's Law WOULD apply
     

  20. So dealers don't profit off illegal drugs?
     

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