99.9% free market

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Gooch_Goblin69, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. #41 TheDudeAbides, Oct 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2009
    Hey man, leve me alone! I am drunk, after all.

    You like Fat Tire?

    Edit: also. this will get me banned. Try to roll with me, guy.
     
  2. Yea, it was the preferred beer on my campus in Boulder. I like Sunshine Wheat better myself.
     
  3. Ya know, I think there's some credence to this free market stuff. I mean sweetwater 4:20 is a much, much better beer, but fat tires the only good beer that comes in both cans and 40's, so fat tire gets my money.

    Capatalism!
     
  4. Well, you know what they say...

    The worse you are at thinking, the better you are at drinking...


    ;)
     

  5. So how do you live with your crippling alcholism?
     
  6. I self medicate
     
  7. If it's not a part of capitalism what is it? Why do you free market types always seem to insist that capitalism is some foreign idea that doesn't actually exist just because the codependent relationship of the state and capital have kept your fantasy world of utopian capitalism from becoming reality?
     
  8. Actually families earned considerably more working in the factories than on the farms. You must also remember that back in the 1870's there wasn't a need for much education. Basically all you needed to do was learn to read and write. The vast majority of people needed nothing more than that and even reading wasn't that important. Life in 1870 was far, far simpler. Children learned pretty much all they needed within a few years. After that what else was there to do? Education wasn't a priority but work was. But as society became more complex, that is, as technology advanced it became more and more important for children to spend more time in school instead of in the factories. In my opinion unions did play an important job at first and did a lot for workers "rights." Today they are more harmful than good.

    I wouldn't expect to see a job that paid so little in a world without a minimum wage. Like it has been brought out before people need to eat and live and $2.50 an hour isn't going to cut it in today's world (it would if we were on a gold standard though). You have to remember that companies are not just competing for a larger share of the market place but also for high quality workers. To attract high quality workers it is important that you offer a wage and benefits that will do so. If you have bad employees or unhappy employees then your productivity will suffer and you will begin losing market share.

    Also, someone that can't find a job and accepts one earning $2.50 an hour is likely to be happy that they are at least earning something rather than nothing. And again, neither you or I or the government has any right to dictate the wage an employer and employee negotiate.

    I can't comment on the union/labor struggles because I haven't studies that enough to discuss it but I can comment on your murder analogy.

    The illegality of murder is recognized because all people, except sociopaths, understand that it is wrong to take another persons right. You can't argue it because it's true. Taking a human life is a violation of ones property. You have a right to your body and your mind and your life. Those things belong to you. If I come along and kill you I have violated your property rights in your body and life. Even if murder were "legalized" by the state it still wouldn't be "legal" in the sense that no one has the right to take another life unless it is in self-defense.

    However, minimum wage laws and regulations on the free market also represent property rights violations. Minimum wage laws, for example, violate the right of the business owner to negotiate how best to utilize his property (wages to be paid). Regulations on the market create the conditions that increase the compliance cost for businesses thus creating a barrier to entry into the market. This barrier keeps competition low which can keep prices for the consumer high. The more competition there is in the market the greater the quality of products delivered will be and the service rendered as well as price reductions. Regulations violate business owners property rights by assuming that the state has some sort of ownership in the businesses. When one can dictate how capital ought to be utilized and what rules ought to be followed you are assuming some ownership over that entity. Since the state has no legitimate ownership over any business regulations are a violation of property.

    The examples you pointed out were extraordinary situations; they were few and far between in reality. You cannot reject an entire system because of a handful of bad examples. The examples you posted represent only a small fraction of total workers in this country, most of whom were and still are quite happy to get up and go to work everyday.

    But if you want to discount an entire system because of a few historical points then so be it. The same points, and more, about the system you choose to adhere to. I choose not to make generalizations like that so I wont engage in it. Needless to say your argument is without merit because those incidences were not the norm for American society.

    And PS. We haven't ever had an anarcho-capitalist society. The time period you're talking about was the beginnings of the Progressive socialist era in America.
     
  9. I dislike the term "capitalism" because it does not accurately reflect what we are talking about. Especially since that term was coined by communist and I'm not in the practice of using my enemies labels.

    Anyway...

    Freer markets in some areas do exist, though not as free as they could be. Not every industry is heavily regulated by the state but any regulations on the business represents a limitation on the market. Personally, when I speak of "the free market" I speak of a legitimate free market, one in which there are no regulations on how business is conducted and there is no taxation on capital. The system we have today is not "capitalism" or a free market by any means. It is more correctly labeled a managed economy, or a fascist economy. The state manages the economy through regulations and taxation. While some areas of the economy are certainly less regulated and thus more free there are still rules and taxes put in place by the state which suppresses competition.

    A 100% free market isn't a Utopian dream. No one promises apple pie and flowers for everyone in a 100% free market. We are still going to have many of the same problems we have now but I would suspect they would be far less troublesome.
     
  10. Oh i'm sure there are plenty of workers who dont mind getting up and working today, percisely because of the strugle made by "Few and far inbetweens" (Even though some of these battles waged on for years).

    But if i May engauge in a little oldschool Aaronman here, allow me to apply my logic elsewhere.

    Say you wanted to reinstate the nazi party, or even ellect an official who has written and published articles in a neonazi newsletter. I could say that the nazi's killed hundreds of thousands of jews, homosexuals, and religious outliers, while you reply that those were just sporadic incidents, and i shouldn't discount an entire system for a few points.

    But the truth is, it was the norm. Just as it was the norm to not get any kind of reperation if injured at work. Just as it was the norm to be payed in company scrip redeamable only at a company store. Just as so much of the system was fucked up before the "progesive socialist" era cleaned up the toxic mess.
     

  11. I never said ban them, I said make sale illegal, so no one can profit off of someones addiciton cause thats total bullshit. I never said make them complelty illegal, like Hunter S. Thompson said "any drug worth taking should be free". Now if your going to critiszie what i say, respond to what I ACCUALY said not some bullshit you assumed.
     
  12. Wouldn't that just create a black market where people would profit off someone's addiction anyway? You really think that making the sale of drugs illegal is going to stop people from selling them? People are going to make money off drugs no matter what. The difference is on one hand, you'll have legitimate business owners making money off drugs and on the other you'll have black market dealers making money.
     
  13. #53 Gooch_Goblin69, Oct 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2009
    Exactly in a perfect society they'd be free. Didn't you read what i wrote.
     
  14. uh no

    how is forbidding a child who wants to work a human right? re minimum wage: if you forbid employers the right to voluntarily exchange with any consenting employee for whatever wage they agree to then you are creating unemployment. minumum wage LMAO @ the right to a union; i have no problem with the concept of unions but mandating a employer to acknowledge a union is violating his rights
     
  15. #55 Arteezy, Oct 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 4, 2009

    No one is going to give you drugs for free.
    Why would someone give you something for nothing? Didn't you read what I wrote?
     

  16. :laughing:
     
  17. Your all a bunch of idealist who believe so strongly in the free market you think nothing can go wrong with it. YES I think the markets should be free in AN IDEAL WORLD, but our world isn't ideal, its full of corruption and as soon as someones in a position of power: IE: the most money, they'll abuse that power to know end to keep themselves in a position of power and/or grow their power.
     
  18. you do realize that a free-market does not mean lawlessness, right?
     
  19. Ok so what laws? Child labor and minimum age seem to be huge infriments on natural rights i guess.
     
  20. "No one may threaten or commit violence ('aggress') against another man's person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a nonaggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory."
    -Murray Rothbard

    "It shall be legal for anyone to do anything he wants, provided only that he not initiate (or threaten) violence against the person or legitimately owned property of another."
    -Walter Block
     

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