Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Politics' started by dubaba, Aug 5, 2011.
US welfare system is not a good socialist system.
I dont think anyone knows anything about North Korea other than they live in a shell and claim to be communists.
Factories and office buildings, dump trucks, cranes, tools ect in the cities and farm land, tractors ect in the country. The true marxist definition of the workers controlling the means of production would be all the workers in a factory democratically controlling how the factory operates.
tha original post is def worth reading in full
.....China is not a Socialist nation.......It hasn't since 79. There is one remaining village that has socialist policies, but they are crumbling because they do not have the support of the integrated socialism that once was. They have to rely on capitalists and thus they cannot support their path unless the rest of the nation returns to Socialism.
Myth #1: Socialists want to take away your property
Personal property is personal property no matter how rich or poor one might be. This may take many forms, from heavy taxation to fund the huge beurocracy socialism leads to, or just plain nationalising private industry. Either way, it is transferring personal property from individuals into the state.
Myth #2: Socialists are against democracy and for a dictatorship
Despite the effort of apologetics, the OP did not manage to dispel this myth. Invariably, socialist rule (as in communist, not say social democratic) can only be upheld by means of a dictatorship. Granted a dictatorship by comitee for the most part, as opposed to dictatorship by despot. Though that have been quite prevalent as well. Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao comes to mind.
Myth #3: Under socialism, there is no incentive to work
When all is guaranteed an income close to the median, why put in the extra effort? Why innovate? Why grow your own business and be your own boss (apart from it beeing illegal naturally)?
Empirically speaking, success in a socialist economy equals nepotism currying to the regime. Not actual merit with regards to production, creativity or innovation.
Besides, even a low-wage menial job earner in a capitalist society, are better off materially than someone in an equal job in a socialist "paradise".
Myth #4: Socialism is against human nature
Human nature is not one monolithic entity. Some might thrive under socialism, other will loathe it. The flaw of socialism, is that it tries to put everyone under the same mold, restricting ones freedom to make ones own fortune. Beurocrats know better, individuals should submit.
Myth #5: Socialists don't respect freedom of religion
It's more correct to say that socialism do not care about religion, as long as it do not pose a threat to the regime. but in any case;
Myth #6: Socialists only care about class oppression—not other forms of oppression
Ideally this is how socialism works. But we see quite the few socialists and communists supporting pretty vile islamists. so one can wonder about how sincere they are in their feminism, equal rights and freedom of thought and expression claims.
And in either case, regime critisism within socialist regimes are never welcome, and censorship always present. So socialist regimes do oppress themselves. See myth #2.
Myth #7: Socialism collapsed when the Soviet Union collapsed
Ideas don't get killed by regimes falling. There are still nazis and nazism around eventhough nazi-germany got defeated some 66 years ago. So the statement is quite true.
Myth #8: Socialism has no historical roots in the United States
Socialism have been an influence in most countries to one degree or another. So no problems there
Not gunna argue with you on myth one as I dont see it as a bad thing.
Myth 2- True communism does not have a dictatorships, it is run through a network of worker and community councils
3- There is incentive to work, if every worker works harder then they all receive more.
4-Human nature is an iffy subject, but I tend to think that people are mad evil or good by there experiences in society. I dont think that socialism is about putting people in the same mold, more making sure that everyone has the same rights and opportunities.
6- I always learned of socialists(nowadays atleast) should be against all forms of oppression. A lot of socialists do support palestinians but what so bad about that? I however have met some crazy socialist dude who was mad that I didnt support Americas "war on islamo-fascism".
Well, that makes you very altruistic, or perhaps you've not actually started making your own money yet. Socialist ideals are ever popular amongst students for example, because they do not actually live in the real world, but rather have it quite nice in a bubble-world of ideas and comradery. Perfectly understandable, and I've been there myself.
But ones perspectives will - for most - change as one enter the real world and is responsible for oneself in all regards.
True communism. A phrase uttered by all apologists for socialism that can't really face the fact that their ideal is not ever going to work when met with reality.
And in heated arguments on the subject, more than once I've been told it is because of people like me it have not worked. Yes, and that just means for communism to work, one really need to oppress people who do not agree. And again, that is why all communist regimes have been, are, and will be oppressive paranoid dictatorships.
People do not put in an extra effort to benefit others than themselves and their immidiate family. I will not work harder to make life easier for a numbnut who can barely get out of bed in the morning. I will work harder in order to make my own life more comfortable. If someone I know is in need beyond the minimum a considerate society should provide (or fails to provide), I may help. But that is my choice, based on my considerations and priorities. Not the state.
But socialism restrics rights, especially of expression and opposition. and it restrics opportunity. You can not grow your own business within socialism. A basic premise for economic drive, technical innovation and invention. Is why socialist economies lagged behind until they ultimatly broke down under the pressure of their own non-producing beurocracy and lack of income from economic activity.
Nothing wrong in supporting palestinians per se. But from the socialist camp, it is rather uncritical. But you should try to listen to the "crazy" socialists you've met, that understand the darker side of the palestinian agenda.
Such socialists are consequent in their political belief. They believe in freedom and equality, damned be political correctness. They see fascism as it present itself, and one place it most certainly present itself is amongst a plethora of popular islamic organisations and parties within the muslim world, palestinians included.
I believe communism, capitalism and socialism all work on paper. The downfall of all three is corruption. Power corrupts us and is fueled by our instinct to dominate in order to get an edge on each other and survive better, this is natural selection of the modernised world.
Once we reform the way we think and are able to properly address our inherent desire to dominate one another, none of the systems will work.
Capitalism is currently turning into what people sometimes call 'corporatism' where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It's selfishness that motivates them, and in times past it was useful to self-preservation, but now it only hurts and gives people unnecessary amounts of wealth.
I'd have to disagree with Myth 3. I have 5-6 family members whom live in a rather socialist country that have never held a job in the entirety of their life. And living in that country for a few years I also experienced the massive amount of non working people, who seemed perfectly able to work.
Socialism is bullshit. It's no better than any other type of government, they all have massive flaws and some pro's. The poster above me is correct, human nature is the downfall of these types of governments.
"I like marijuana, socialism is the way to go"
Regarding 3, they still receive even if they don't work. Therefore they don't. People will always choose to do nothing and receive free benefits rather than work hard and receive free benefits.
Lol I started supporting socialism because of a lot of things but not marijuana. Dont you think that there could be a law under socialism saying if you dont work you dont get fed?
I am a student but I work 20 hours during the school year and 40 during the summer. Ive had to support myself for a while now and I have still kept my political beliefs.
There has never been communism because it probably would take a long time for a society to become that. However there have been many not perfect but good socialist(a transitional government between now and communism) countries like cuba, venezuala and even at a local level in chiapas.
I would have not problem with helping other people out, I dont see it as such a bad thing. And as I said in above post I am of the belief that if you dont work you shouldnt reap the benifits of a socialist society.