12/12 LED growth, 100W/160W LED

Discussion in 'Micro Grows' started by keitanakano, Jan 6, 2013.

  1. Started a 12/12 experiment, using new LED technology.

    The lamps:

    1x 30W pure white, one more powered up soon (2x 30W pure white = 60W)
    1x 3x 10W blue - 30W very bright
    2x 2x 10W red 660nm - 40W (not much brightness)
    soon also 12x 3W red 660nm - better chips, more lumen

    the white and blue lamps are very bright, the red lamps are not very bright.

    I use a small plastic box which can hold 2 gal. soil if filled to the top, only 1/3 height is filled up with soil.

    Popped about 50 seeds! Not all will sprout, but today the first two small plants became visible.

    All males will be pulled this time.

    I don't care about max. harvest. The place where the box is hidden is very small, only 80cm height.

    What I want to do is an experiment how small plants can be grown. The sooner they finish, the better.

    Genetics are a good mix of Afghan, Old school Orange Bud, Bubblegum, and others, including Low Ryder.

    I have searched the web a lot for small plants.

    I want shortest possible grow time! So maybe I will get 30 or so plants, and after pulling the males, 15 plants.

    Area of the box is maybe 60cm x 40cm.

    What should I program for the time?

    12/12?
    Or is 11/13 better for earlier flowering?
    Should I use 18 hours for the first two weeks after germination to give the plants a little boost?

    Should I remove fan leaves?

    From what I have read, about 3 months from seeds to harvest is possible. Maybe one or two weeks less.

    160W LED is very bright inside the small enclosure.

    I saw some small plants grown in cups, and this is about the height I want. 3 to 5 grams per plant x 15 plants would be pretty decent!

    In 2012 I have not grown outdoors, too much efforts.

    Weed prices here are almost insane. 25 Euros for about a gram or less, and 50 Euros for about 2.5 grams. I spent a lot of money on such weed, and also hash of low quality. Still have more than 1000 seeds here, and with LED prices low, I decided to start an experiment how well this technology works out.

    The lamps also have small fans, so there is airflow.

    I will add pictures soon, when I get a few more young plants with some leaves.

    I don't understand fully about the timing, The weed would start flowering at less than 14 hours? Or is it 12 hours? So maybe 11/13 instead of 12/12 would only mean a slow down of growth.

    What happens if I leave the plants in total darkness for a day? Will this accelerate flowring start?
     
  2. Week 1: Germination

    One photo update every week.

    A bit slow start, the seeds are from 2011 + 2010.

    Start was Tuesday, first small seedlings on Sunday evening!

    One of the LED lamps is shown as well, 30W blue LEDs.
    The color in the photo is not right, in reality is it a bright white light in there.

    Two more lamps + LCD timer will be installed soon.

    As I say, this is an experiment, maximum yield is not important.
    I want to try 12/12, and to have many small plants in one container.

    According to Marijuana bust news, 1 plant = 1 pound, so 50 seedlings have a street value of $25,000

    In Reality, maybe 15 plants will make it, each will yield 5 grams at best.
    So this is 75 grams. $750 value!

    If I would try to sell it,

    a) the dealer won't take it if it is not very thick + dense buds
    b) I would get $250 at best
    c) consider I want to use some for myself

    At best, I could make $100, if I want to take the risk and try to sell it to a dealer.

    Consider this for law enforcement, $25,000 so-called street value, and $100 I could get with a lot of efforts. If the bud is sub-standard, nobody will want it.

    And consider all the hard work. At least 20 hours to search for LEDs, order them, to build the lamps, power supply, and install the wires.

    This would result in $5/hour.

    Nobody talks about the costs for the electric energy, the water, the nutrients, and of course the lamps.
     

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  3. this looks fun, subed
     
  4. One photo from Sunday night

    Day 5

    Today, 12 small seedlings. I will post a photo later on.

    130W right now, the red LEDs don't run at full power. I get a regulator circuit for them soon.

    Right now, I switch on/off manually. Hope the timer will arrive soon.
     

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  5. Update. Day 6.
     

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  6. Update. Day 9
     

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  7. I dont think growing them in the same pot is a good idea.
     
  8. One idea is to add a 10L bag with fresh soil as it is, means removing the foil from the top of the bag, removing the plants+roots from the container, and put on top of the soil bag.

    Problem is I have less than 1m available vertically.

    40 to 50cm plants would be ideal, but I will see how they develope. Updates every day or two, later maybe every 3 or 4 days. I will documentate this properly, and if I change something, it will be explained as well.

    Built one more 30W blue lamp yesterday, which is ready for wiring today. And 12x 3W red LEDs will be here soon.

    The 10W red LEDs are a problem, 2x 10W LEDs get very hot, so I don't drive them with full 10 Watts.

    Today I made an experiment, inactivated 2 of the 3 internal LED strings from a 10W red LED, so it is only 3 Watts. But I run it at 12V, 0.5 Amps, so it is running at 6 Watts!

    One red LED, only 1 of 3 strings, and the sink gets very warm. It does not have a cooling fan however!

    Maybe I will change these lamps, so each single red LED has it's own heatsink.

    I get some driver chips soon, so I can build drivers, right now, I run 4 of these red LED from a toroid transformer. They don't get full 10W each, but already the sinks which each have a fan run very hot.

    These are not true red LEDs, as I say, I removed some coating from one LEDs, and the chips actually are UV or pink LEDs.

    The new 3W LEDs are real red chips with clear coating, I hope they will be better.

    I have this overdriven LED on my desktop. brightness has not changed over many hours now.

    I will post a new picture from the plants as well later on today.
     

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  9. Made a nutes mix as well, 1/2 cup Miracle Grow into a 5L bottle, and this mixture dilluted 1:2.5 (a little more than that).

    Want to introduce this from the beginning on but slowly.

    Also I have liquid tomato fertilizer (for fruiting), and solid 7:7:7 granules.

    Miracle Grow is particulary bad, even 1/2 strength will scorch full grown plants badly. I used about 2/3 of the bottle, mostly outdoors, where it does not matter so much.

    5 different fertilizers here, they all have to be used up. But only 3 of them are suitable for Marijuana flowering. Or wait, I think there is a cheap 3.5:3.5:3.5 liquid as well + added trace elements.

    In the first time I only need about 0.7 Ltr., and lasts for days. I know from a past indoors grow, I will need some litres every day if the plants grow larger.
     
  10. Today's update. Day 10.

    I am preparing to seperate the red LEDs, one one each cooler, and to drive them with higher current. I need to wait for driver chips...

    Installed a cooling fan for the 500 Watts toroid transformer, since it turns very hot (2x 250W, approaching 200W). It's good now.

    I hope when I have more red light, the plants won't be stretching so much.

    I saw a lot of stretching some while ago when I used cold white CFLs.
    What I have now is Pure White LEDs, which include more red light, but also one 30W blue LED lamps. And a second waiting to become wired. I think I will wait until the red LEDs are ready too.

    Watered today with Miracle Grow water at 1:6 strength, hope the seedlings will survive. But I won't use MG all the time, just for now until the 5L mix is used up.
     

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  11. I used MG tomato food for veg and MG bloom booster for flowering and i never past the point of 1/4 of the regular description dosage. And fertilized every two weeks.

    I think alot of who dislike MG use to high of a feeding or feed to often, so just remeber go easy of the Mgizzy. Im pretty sure you want some semi-hungry plants than some burned ones. DONT FEED MG TILL the first baby leaves fall off!
     
  12. #12 keitanakano, Jan 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 11, 2013
    This is the power supply.

    500 Watts toroid, and a PWM modulator. I am drawing nearly 200 Watts now.

    The blue lamp needs reduced voltage but I will build an extra regulator for that soon.

    The red LEDs run directly from the toroid DC, both current is too low, and heat developement is too much already. I have to single out the red LEDs, and build extra regulators for them (one for two in series).

    So the big PWM modulator only will be used for the 30W white LEDs.

    Overdriving LEDs with higher current does not seem to be a problem, only the LED temperature. As soon as it is exceeding 100C or so, brightness goes down (and of course high temp is very bad for the LEDs).

    As I wrote, I have one LED here on my desktop, 1/3 from a 10W LED, and I drive it with 6W. It has a big heatsink, which turns about 65C hot. The brightness remained the same for the past 24 hours.

    But I do not really want to overdrive my LED lamps so much, the white LEDs heatsinks turn pretty hot at rated 1 Amps current already.

    I use crappy 12V fans on them which I also drive with much higher voltage!

    This is only an experiment if the big white LEDs work out for growing.

    Normally temperature should be monitored, and fan spinning RPM as well- for safety reasons. Imagine what happens if one fan stops spinning! There is some reserve, as the heatsinks are large, but they will turn very hot!

    It happend actually on one red lamp, the silicone cement I used discolored, but the LEDs did not take damage.

    I paid less than $100, and have nearly 200W LED power! Excluding the toroid transformer.

    I have learned a lot about power LEDs recently. :)

    One could say smoking hash and weed will affect the brain, but as I say, only in a good way. I can build complicate electric circuit, and it works without fail.

    I hope this experimental grow-op can be completed in less than 3 months. 12/12 all the way through.

    By the way this is not an ATX PC power supply. I am only using the metal box of an ATX supply to house the toroid transformer.

    This is all only an experimental setup, to run it for a longer time than 3 months, much better wiring, housing + safety measures are required.

    But of course, I can see the heat developement, and get ideas how to design a permanent power supply. Maybe I will use ready-made LED drivers anyway, they also only cost $10. So each 30W lamp will cost me $20. But they are not flexible, you can not use 4x 10W LEDs in series. So maybe, I would still use a mix of PWM modulators, and ready-made LED drivers.

    All LEDs have totally different heat volumes, with the red LEDs being the worst.
     

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  13. Day 11

    Rewired the lamps tonight, removed the red LEDs.
    They were singled out, one heatsink for each one. I want to overdrive them a little. I use VGA coolers now for two of the red LEDs. They are more effective than the fans I use on the black sinks.

    One seedling died, I think from small slugs that hatched. Found two of these + removed. Another seedling looks pretty bad, in the second picture. bottom.

    LEDs now:

    3x 30W pure white - 90W
    3x 10W blue - 30W
    2x 3W red - 6W (I use these in series with the blue LED lamp, work out well)
    126W all together

    More LEDs for installation:

    3x 10W blue - 30W
    4x 10W red - 40W to 60W
    12x 3W red - 30W to 40W
    another 125W all together

    so if all the LEDs are installed, I will have about 250W LED power. It is a relatively small space, I think maybe 1 cubic metre all together.

    In the big container I will have maybe 6 or 7 plants after removing the males.
    Also started up more seeds in smaller containers. As there is more space which is not used. Some plants maybe will not develope right + need replacement.

    I hope for 10 good plants with possibly 5 grams each.
     

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  14. Day 12. The first plants with 2nd set of leaves.
    They have stretched a little I need to get the red LEDs ready!

    There are 3 smaller seedlings which are stunted.
    One can be seen in a photo, just starting with the first set of leaves.
    The other two have not grown at all (yet).
     

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  15. Here the new red LED lamps. The coolers are powerful so I want to try to overdrive them. Maybe 15W each, so I get out 30W.

    The chip is not high voltage so I have to run it from the white LEDs 32V.
    And I have no clue about the coil, hope it is good enough for two LEDs.

    Also I have real LED driving chips here but they need special coils. and 30V limit for these.

    For the other red LEDs, I want to use 50 volts. I can run 3 in series!

    All together my costs are 50 to 60 cents/Watt. If you count everything, it is rather 65 to 70 cents.

    I will documentate this grow properly, and I hope I can harvest some grams good weed.
     

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  16. Day 13. Started up more seeds, to replace males or stunted plants.
    12/12 causes seedlings to start up much slower. I don't expect any flowering signs before day 25 or day 30.

    So, 4 weeks startup, then 8 to 10 weeks flowering.
    Makes 12 to 14 weeks from seed to harvest.

    January, February, March + April.
     

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  17. hey dude, I love experiments more than most but your plants...... your plants just aren't growing dude. I have no faith in LEDs and this grow just enforces it. have a look at my grows in my signature when they were 12 days old. the size is massively different. I think if you used CFLs instead you will see a huge difference

    as for growing small, this is a photo of an auto grown under a 20watt lamp costing hardly any electricity

    [​IMG]
     
  18. there is no need to fertilise these plants, they are way too small to be nute deficient. if you don't expect flowers to show until day 25, then why not run the lights 18/6 until day 25? I would think they will grow better
     
  19. I had CFLs nearly 500 Watts. It was totally bad because of the heat, bulbs failing all the time, high voltage wires, and leaves burning.

    The seeds are not fresh so there was a delay. They are from outdoors grow 2011.

    Also I don't have all the LEDs up right now.

    These are regular strains not autoflower. I want them to flower as soon as possible!

    And yes they do grow every day.

    I have only used 1/2 litres water with 1/6 strength miracle grow.
    So this is maybe 200 miligrams miracle grow. Maybe there is some trace element missing in the soil and I want to avoid that.
     
  20. OK I looked at your growth. You did not count from popping in the seeds, but from the day the seedlings appeared, right?

    I have started seeds with 300 Watts CFL, so your day count seems a bit off.
     

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