100% coco advice wanted

Discussion in 'Coco Coir' started by 967, Apr 18, 2012.

  1. I'm starting to see that too, after reading an article on soilandhealth.org titled "bread from stone" about stone meal, I am convinced the basic mineralization is key to vigor and resistance. the content of guano's, dolomite's, and the other highly marketed stuff is just not sufficient in it's results compared to the variety of minerals in rock dust, I have seen it and the anecdotal evidence from over a century ago confirms my bias.. and it highlights how similar the advertisements and sales for chemical versus organic fertilizers are- then and now.

    just check out gaia green glacial rock dust and some of the claims on their website- notice how it actually reads like a comprehensible text - I've grown with coco and synth nutes and i'm sure the organic way is far lazier with more consistent results.
     
  2. To be fair H2T, both ways can be complicated out of all proportion, just as both methods can be simplified to a stress free grow. Organic growers now have got a product list as long as any hydro growers, again, it's all based on nature, but in my opinion it still casually disregards the fact that indoor growing and bottle feeding nutrients, is very different to outdoor growing.

    Take the rockdust that you refer to as an example. It's purpose is to re-mineralise the ground, but, before it's even available, before it adds anything (and there's some debate on whether it does, you can check it out on google, interesting debate on it actually) it needs to be broken down over time. In a pot which, in most cases, is in use for less than 3 months, that will never happen. Besides, how many of those minerals are not present in good quality compost?

    The thinking is that there are thousands of minerals available, plants need lots of different minerals to grow, therefore put rockdust in the pots and we've added something beneficial. In theory it's nice, but what was it someone said? "in theory practice and theory are the same, in practice they're very different"...

    That one saying can be applied to all aspects of our hobby, but most often to the nutes we use and why we use them. It's all very very very ambiguous.

    I've used rockdust myself before. Did it make a difference? I honestly couldn't say. That should tell you something.

    What we know is what base nutrients cannabis relies on to thrive, and, fortunately for us, there are lots of basic nutes out there which cater exactly to our needs. The problem is, every new scientific report, just opens up a new avenue for some nutrient company to exploit with wild claims based on it.

    The truth is, if you ask the scientists themselves to give a prediction of what our application of those findings will yield, they'll probably be a lot more honest and a lot less exciting than the nutrient companies. And that just doesn't sell, does it?

    Coco can and should be so so easy to just plug in and leave. There are one part nutes out there which will get you from start to finish with plants that you'd see in photo of the month competitions and yielding a gram per watt. People will just look for the holy grail. It's in our nature.

    There's no trust left in the basics anymore and it's because nute companies have made it out like there are loads of different aspects of soil biology you've got to understand before you can look after a plant properly and get it to it's optimum performance. What they conveniently leave out is that hardly any of that applies to an indoor bottle-fed pot-based coco/compost-grown plant.
     
  3. Shit the bed, ask a simple question you get a holy war..

    I have another question.. if 18L of coco is too much to grow with, how much do i need to yield from 4 plants under a 600W HPS to make it a worthwhile and economical grow?

    I agree that 18L of coco would not be too much, i've yet to find out. But to say so is ignorant. I can see how small plants in large pots can pose some problems, but i cant see how a 4' plant in 20L of coco could be any worse off than a 2' plant in 10L of coco. It's all relative is it not?
     
  4. That's the key question right there.

    Some people might say it's possible to get 6oz per plant in 10-12L pots, and it might be. Might. But why, for the sake of the extra few quid worth of coco, would you try to?

    Provided you've got your environment and basic skills sorted, there are only three things which put a limit on your yield: Genetics, Light wattage & Pot size.

    In my opinion you're about bang on with 18L. You could have even gone slightly bigger.

    You're looking for 6 oz a plant and in my opinion it's not far off 20L which guarantees you that, so I think you've judged well.

    I had a grow exactly the same as yours - 4 plants under a 600W in big pots. I used 25L planters and grew 4 warlocks. I got about 22 oz off that grow with no training.

    If your genetics are good and you have a healthy grow, and give them ample veg time under a good light, you'll hit a good target.

    How you Veg them makes a difference too. Big lights and lots of it + big pots = big plants which are ready to pack on the weight.

    Any pictures?
     
  5. #45 SCMC, Apr 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2012
    Much of this depends on your lighting. Simply put, you can only get so much PAR energy out of the bulb, and as a result you can only grow so much bud. Using a larger planter and excess media, more than the plant will need, will not directly equate an increase to your harvest weights. More lighting, and an extended vegetative period, would encourage the use of more media. But in your situation it is my opinion that 18 liters of coco will be more media than the plants I visualize you will be growing to require in order to reach their potential, if they were in my own grow room.

    With a 600w lamp...
    300 grams would be about the minimum "good job" as this is about 0.5g per watt. Not fantastic, but about average for your beginner growers.
    600 grams would be the upper end of a non-CO2 enriched grow space.
    With a 16sqft garden...
    Many strains will harvest around 300g to 450g per square meter when grown outdoors. You have about 1.6 square meters of proper illumination indoors and could expect slightly less than you would outdoors. 480g would be a very acceptable harvest.

    So... Somewhere between 300 grams and 600 grams is expected, and I think if you're aiming for say, 480 grams, then we can break that down by 4 plants to 120grams per plant, or about 4 ounces each (plus another few grams). 3 ounces per plant would get your minimum expected harvest, while 5 ounces per plant would be nearly the upper end. 4 ounces is a good midway between the two and is completely possible.

    I commonly, and I mean very often, see plants that are 4 ounces each in 3 gallons of coco. Coco is not soil, and doesn't require the same allowance regarding space. You don't need to use as much coco as you would soil, you can use less media and still support a very large plant. I will need to dig up some pictures, but I've seen plants that are an easy 2 ounces in a 1 gallon container and those are what convinced me to dial back my media volumes when working with coco as a hydroponic media.

    Therefore, given your lighting restriction and reasonable expectation, 3 gallon containers are a perfect fit. You will have enough space for a decent vegetative period, up to 60 days depending on growth patterns and training methods. The 3 gallons, or 10-12 liters of coco, will provide ample space for a root zone that could easily support even a 5 or possibly 6 ounce plant; without being too much media for a phenotype that won't break much more than 3 ounces on this lighting during the growth period, if that is the case.

    Using an excess amount of coco, with regards to the length of the vegetative period and the lighting restriction and the reasonable expectation, may not cause any problems (although I think it can and will for most) but it also will not promise a larger harvest.

    If you'd really like to just figure it out this grow so that the next 40 years of your growing career can be better educated on the subject... I'd suggest trying a variety of planters, 5 gallons, 3 gallons, whatever... And seeing for yourself which you prefer. Personally, I like the quick wet/dry cycle I get from a "large" indoor plant in a "smaller" volume of coco. The reduced volume of coco retains less solution which is consumed at a rapid rate. I have found improved growth rates from this style of growing where the saturation of the media is more required than it would be in a coco media that retained a greater deal of moisture but was scheduled for another saturation regardless.

    Those are my personal opinions. I claim none of them to be FACT and I have always been careful to do so. An individual grower must find their way. My intention is to offer a voice for consideration. I hope this doesn't result in the further clogging of your thread with more of that intellectual constipation from he-who-must-not-be-named.
     
  6. #46 967, Apr 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 27, 2012
    If i grow a pound ill be the happiest man on this forum :p

    i still make a lot of mistakes and I'm still learning. i expect to yield 12 ounces, any more is just a bonus. shit i can't even transplant in coco without them suffering undue stress for a week or more before they take off again. Could have to do with going from a small pot to large i don't know. does everyone have this problem? my drip trays and planter bags make it a little difficult to adequately fill out my entire grow space. if anything i wish i used 20L buckets that would sit better but hey had to use what i had around. Also a bit of perlite in the mix i think would do wonders but again, had to use what i had around so plain coco it is.

    I veg under an old burnt out 250W HPS, not ideal and have to train the shit out of them to keep from outgrowing their space. then once moved to bloom room they tend to stretch and i run into height issues. so its a far from perfect grow but..

    I'll throw up some pictures when they take off again. have 2 skunk number 1's and 2 sour candy's which will be vegged another month ish. sour candy yields like a trooper so who knows maybe I'll get lucky and hit that target lb..
     
  7. #47 TheWatcher, Apr 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2012

    I'm sorry but this is some of the worst advice you will find on the internet and it's that simple. From start to finish it's just one big smokescreen to blind you to the fact that he hasn't answered your simple question. Don't take my word for it either, get a third opinion from skilled growers from other sites if you have to. They'll call bullshit not just on what he's saying, but how he's saying it.

    1. "Much of this depends on your lighting. Simply put, you can only get so much PAR energy out of the bulb, and as a result you can only grow so much bud"

    Yes it does. We already covered that. So let's look at it properly and openly, and not apply our own personal bullshit to it to render it into something which fits our argument better.

    600w = 600g if you get everything bang on. That's where you should be aiming, whether or not you achieve it. That in itself renders the rest of the post completely moot.

    2. Using a larger planter and excess media, more than the plant will need, will not directly equate an increase to your harvest weights.

    72L (4x18L) is not an excessive amount of media to use under a 600W bulb.

    There's a commonly accepted ratio of medium to wattage which is adhered to throughout the cannabis community. That ratio is approximately 65L for a 600W light. No matter which way you split it. A lot of people suggest using more medium than that.

    Therefore our wannabe scientist here is suggesting they don't know what the fuck they're doing.

    These are people consistently getting a GPW or more. Listen to them, or listen to him. If you can't decide on that, have a look at his journal. That should help you to a swift decision.

    3. "In your situation it is my opinion that 18 liters of coco will be more media than the plants I visualize"

    Well, omitting the fact that the whole paragraph which followed this is a grammatical battering ram of bullshit which doesn't even make basic sense, how can you take seriously the advice of someone who "visualises" your plants, then bases his advice on that?

    4. "I think if you're aiming for say, 480 grams

    then we can break that down by 4 plants to 120grams per plant, or about 4 ounces each (plus another few grams) "



    Like magic he arrives at 480 grams as your target yield and then bases the rest of his post on it.

    Whether you get a GPW or not, that's your target. Maybe 480 is about what you will get, that's a fair prediction in itself... but in no way should that mean you should scale everything back to that target. That's false and flawed mathematics and flawed and shoddy reasoning. It's illogical and misleading.

    You don't work out pot size based on the estimate, you work your pot size based on the light and the number of plants you'll be growing. That's a universal fact which he has used smoke and mirrors to skip right over.

    5. "I commonly, and I mean very often, see plants that are 4 ounces each in 3 gallons of coco".

    So now we're basing out estimates on skilled growers? In that case why aren't we aiming for 22oz?

    It's a self defeating argument.



    This next bit puts a lot into perspective about what this fella knows vs what he thinks he knows:

    "3 gallon containers are a perfect fit. You will have enough space for a decent vegetative period, up to 60 days"

    60 days!?!? 9 weeks??!!?

    That's a massive overestimation. 28 days would be enough veg time to get 4-5 oz plants in 3 gal pots, easily.

    In 60 days you could grow a tree that'd keep half of Jamaica happy for a week.
    In 60 days you could justify a 50L container and pull 20oz a plant.

    Seriously, either ignore this fella completely, or get a third opinion. Don't believe me when I call bullshit on what he's got to say, ask some other skilled growers who are doing big numbers and hitting good targets. There are plenty around.
     

  8. Each individual specific situation calls for something different. I have successfully yieled 8 oz. on a plant in coco (dried not wet) only that was only in a 1 gallon pot of it. That is not to say that it is indicitive of all peoples results just the idea of less is more or more is needed is never a fast hard rule.


    Recently I had 2 foot robust trees in 16oz barrel cups in nothing but perlite. The base of the stalk was 3 inch in diameter before I transplanted and they never wilted or lost leaves at all. The trade of was that I had to water twice a day no questions or they wilted.

    In no way is more coco worse or better. In any given moment it would be situational for the sake of argument unless there is specific data involved like room size vertical clearance and all that stuff.


    Personally I want to water more often even in a large container and water less during each watering than some. I want to amend my water more often and don't want to wait days to do it sometimes. Coco does not always dry out as fast as some people on the internet would love everyone to believe. And again there are factors like temp and humidity.
     
  9. In all honesty I think that you can use any amount you like, if more then just be sure to get your roots to fill out the pot, I would personally make sure my pot had its roots exploring the new media after transplant before I put them into flower. That all has to do with how long the strain flowers for and how much yield you want and how much space you have. IMO...
     
  10. Basic rule still and always applies...1 gallon container per foot of expected vertical growth.
    I would worry more about growing in small containers and getting root bound than a guesstamate on the yield...You get what you get when the fat lady sings.

    3 gallon pots are a perfect size for indoor growing and obtaining a decent yield. Anything larger than 5 gal you should be outdoors where you get the full benefit of the grow cycle.
    The determining factor for yield is in the strain and how optimal and dialed in your grow is...
     
  11. What if you want to grow just 2 under a 600 though? What would you do then?
     
  12. Doesn't make a difference.
    Taller plants need more soil and a longer grow cycle. A 1000 watt light for penetration would be better to max yields with taller plants.
    Growing indoors is much easier to handle smaller containers and care for plants. The less time you spend from start to finish, the less likely you are to acquire deficiencies and possible insect infestation...
    I would stlll use 3 gallon pots, do some lst and a scrog to get a even canopy for higher yield.
     
  13. #53 TheWatcher, Apr 29, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 29, 2012
    Doesn't make a difference.

    It does make a difference because you're trying to get 600g off 2 plants. So, how do you go about that?

    Taller plants...

    Why do the plants have to be taller?
    Pot size and height are not related in any way. Training is the same irrespective of pot size.

    need more soil

    No more soil/coco than 2 pots half it's size.

    a longer grow cycle

    How much longer would the grow cycle be for a 22L pot than a 10L? 2 weeks? It's not much time really. Hardly anything, and what you lose in time you gain in halving the plant numbers.

    Growing indoors is much easier to handle smaller containers and care for plants. The less time you spend from start to finish, the less likely you are to acquire deficiencies and possible insect infestation

    I don't agree with that thinking cf. Get it done quick before something goes wrong?

    A large pot is no harder than a small one to grow in. The only difference between them is how often you've got to water them. A large pot is less maintenance.



    There's no right or wrong way to do this, which is why this all started. Neither method is better than the other. They both have certain and clear advantages over one another. It's definitely not the case that big plants/pots aren't cut out for indoors. It's a matter of personal choice and style imo and nothing more.
     
  14. Here's some pics of my ladies in waiting. Just starting to snap out of the transplant yellowing. Have started LST as i imagine i'm going to run into space issues very soon. 3 weeks to go in flower room so hoping i can keep them under control til then

    Also threw in a couple of pics of my current flowering plants at 6 weeks. For the most part they are fine but have a little second flowering issue with some? I attribute this to the koolbloom liquid introduced in week 3, didn't really ease them into it as much as i probably should've. I returned shooting powder as i didn't want this to happen so yeah not very happy about it Also i tend to leave a little solution in my reservoir when i refill it so while i added 0.2EC koolbloom each time i didn't count the small amount already in there leading to a compounding effect. Just starting them on koolbloom dry now which i will be feeding at a weak 0.1EC for the next 2 weeks then a week of flush and done
     

    Attached Files:

  15. good lookin weed 967, you ever do any defol?, i got talked into tryin it and i defol all my bushy(er) plants now.
     
  16. #56 967, May 2, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2012
    Thanks yeah its all good, definately room for improvement. Shame i'm so bad at taking pictures, thats with a 12mp camera haha

    I defoliate a little here and there throughout flowering but for the most part leave them on. I know it definately helps with getting the under nuggets ripe but i'm not really sure how many fans they need for optimum growth, that coupled with me not liking the look of a bare budding plant tells to leave most on. Might give it a go with one of the 4 i have lined up for the next grow

    What's up with that weird bud? Second flowering by the looks of it. the difference between my good buds and crappy buds is HUGE. Pretty much only happened to the one plant. All fed same food, only thing i can think of it being is a hot spot in the room?
     
  17. damm thats an ounce under a pound you might actually need that 15L but i would work my way up from say4L to 9L then 18L.
     
  18. What you yield is limited only by your root space and your light bulb. It's that simple. There's no reason you can't aim for 22 per plant if you've got a separate veg space. I grow regularly in 22L storage pots, which don't look that big actually, and I go straight into them from 1L. Sometimes 5L. The growth after that point, in big pots under a big light, is ridiculous.
     
  19. #59 notch, May 13, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2012
    Hey guys, I've been running coco for about 2 years. I've also sold CANNA coco.

    The root mass forms differently in coco fiber then it does in soil.

    SO... It takes a lot less coco to produce the same size plant a 3 gallon soil plant would produce.

    I generally veg in 1 gallons and flower in a 2 gallon container under a 600 hps.
    I also drip feed my plants twice a day in flower. Once an hour after they wake up and once an hour before they go to bed.

    I hope this helps. Cheers.




    Currently running Sour D, OG Kush, Purple Nepal and Romberry :bongin:
     
  20. Hey notch, with that drip system, do you run to waste or recirc?
     

Share This Page