Is Azomite a reasonable substitute for Rock dust

 
No, I'm not trying to look cool at all and it's a legitimate question.
 
Is it something that could occur, or, are there documented cases of it actually happening? It's a theory vs reality question.
 
Sorta like the TMV (Tobacco Mosaic Virus), thing that makes the rounds every now and then. Yes, cannabis (in theory), is susceptible to TMV, but every time it's reported it turns out to be something else. I've yet to hear of a mj plant that tested positive for TMV, although I'll admit I quit paying attention to it a couple years ago and I'm in the middle of a tobacco growing area.
 
waktoo has a more than valid point with the other sources of aluminum, especially deodorant.
 
Wet

 

 
I feel that you were disrespectful and flippant in comparing me and my opinion to the panicked and naive Chicken Little, and I'll go no further with it.
 
If you're asking whether I have documented cases of Azomite killing an MJ plant through aluminum toxicity, the answer is no.  I highly doubt someone who is inexperienced enough to use that much would be able to recognize the aluminum toxicity when it happened.  Azomite's website states that they tested it by using a soil mix with 25% azomite, and that although the plant lived, it was very spindly and they don't recommend using that much.  Anyone who used more azomite than that..... I don't think they would post about it lol.
 
However..... I definitely do think that people who use too much Azomite, and compound the problem with humic acids, could easily see aluminum toxicity issues.  And, as I stated earlier, they would appear to be other types of problems, making it incredibly unlikely someone would diagnose it as an aluminum toxicity issue: 
• Direct toxicity, primarily seen as stunted roots
• Reduces the availability of phosphorus (P), through the formation of Al-P compounds
• Reduces the availability of sulfur (S), through the formation of Al-S compounds
• Reduces the availability of other nutrient cations through competitive interaction

 
And then if we consider the human health issue.... which I already posted an Am. Journal of Medicine article that confirmed aluminum present in tobacco and cannabis is absorbed in the lungs and poses a threat to human health.... 
 
Yes, I think that the aluminum present in Azomite could pose a threat to the health of both you and your plant.... in reality.

 

Man!  Get over yourself! The Chicken Little comment wasn't directed at you. If it was, your name would have been in there. I'm not that fucking subtle.
 
I was thinking more about the TMV non issue and other non issues that have popped up that sound scary in theory and little to no basis in reality. Chicken Little is just my generic catch all. Like cell phone radiation causes brain tumors and on and on. I just have a problem with theory presented as gospel.
 
You're right, anyone who would use that much Azomite has surely been beat with the stupid stick and would just prove it by posting about it. Trace elements are just that, a trace and using more achieves nothing.
 
Wet

 

I'm not going to de-rail this thread and bicker with you about personal bullshit like your first couple sentences.
 
The title of this post is "Is Azomite a reasonable substitute for Rock dust" not "Is Azomite a good source of trace minerals."  I don't recommend using Azomite at 4-5 cups per cubic foot, which is the rate rock dust is commonly recommended at. Using at 1/4-1/2 cup as a mineral source.... it's not necessary but it's certainly much less objectionable.
 
Nothing that I ever post will ever be gospel.  But it will be based on some sort of science, with some thought behind it.  And it's a theory that I think.... in combination with the precautionary principle, is enough to justify legitimate discussion.  Everyone can make up their own mind whether or not they think Azomite and other high-aluminum amendments are worth it.  But they should at least receive the facts so they can make an informed decision.  I simply said I agreed with marva that the aluminum content concerns me, and supported it with science.  Never claimed anything was gospel.

 

You two are cute, like a husband and wife arguing.

 

 
I take it that you're asking me for clarification on my post?  I mean.... obviously there are varying opinions and mine certainly isn't the only one.  But you should know that if you use high-aluminum amendments like Azomite in conjunction with humic acid products, they are likely to chelate the alumino-silicate bond and make the aluminum available for uptake by your plant.  Whether that concerns you.... whether it might hurt the health of your or your plant.... that's up to you to decide... and probably largely depends on the quantities of Azomite and Humic Acid being used.
 
If you want to use it as a source of trace minerals.... by all means go ahead.  Add 1/4-1/2 cup to each cubic foot of soil you make.  At that rate the amount of aluminum in your soil should be fairly minor, and may not concern many people.  I personally would never even consider adding 4-5 cups of Azomite to my mix (as a rock dust replacement), but again... that's my opinion and not a universally-shared one.  
 
If you have had great success with these products, then you might be less inclined to cut back on the Azomite, and I don't blame you in the least.  I just want you to have the info to make an informed decision about the risks you take with you and your plants' health.  I'm not saying it's a major risk.... we all take risks every day..... using a cell phone is a risk.... we all have to decide for ourselves how severe each risk is, and whether it is worth it to us. 
 
For me... the risk of adding aluminum to my mix isn't worth it.  There are other rock dusts (if you even consider Azomite a rock dust), and other trace mineral sources.  And I'm in the fortunate position of not already owning Azomite, which makes it easier to not use it.  If I already owned some.... I might be throwing a 1/4 cup into each soil mix.... 

 

 
The study you cited used 25% azomite by volume.  1/4-1/2 cup per cf is <1% by volume.  4-5 cups azomite is probably okay

 

 
What study?  The "study" conducted by the manufacturers of Azomite on only a handful of tomato plants?  That's some Monsanto-style home-cooking right there.  And they determined that 25% would hurt the plant.  They made no attempt to discern how much aluminum had been taken up by the plant, or how that might affect people who would consume it.  My concern is almost entirely with the health of the human consuming the plant, not with the health of the plant.
 
The only study I cited was the study by the doctors at Keele University in Staffordshire, UK, and published in the peer-reviewed American Journal of Medicine, who found that:

• Tobacco and cannabis are hitherto unrecognized potent contributors to the body burden of aluminum.
• Aluminum that is inhaled either from active or passive smoking is biologically available and is likely to be absorbed systemically.
• Aluminum entering the lung and the olfactory system as either particulates or gaseous complexes may contribute toward smoking-related disease including asthma and neurological dysfunction.

Is that the study that makes you feel 4-5 cups of alumina-silicate in your soil mix is ok? 
 
Or was it the statement by Dr. Faust at BioAg (possibly the world's leading expert on humic acids with over 50 years experience, having studied and taught in 20 countries on 4 continents) discussing the effect humic acids can have on alumina-silicate clays like Azomite:
 
"Typically, aluminum constitutes about 10-20% of these clays. The claim made by sellers is that the aluminum is bound in the silicate structure and is therefore not biologically active. This may be true from a chemistry standpoint, when only examining the clay itself, but is not the case when it is reacted with fulvic acid. So the caveat here is that fulvic acid is well documented to dissolve silicates as well as mono, di, and polyvalent cations (positively charged ions). This means that fulvic acid binds and retains these minerals in a bio-available form for cell penetration or uptake. Now the aluminum has a very high biological significance, unfortunately a toxic one."

 
Was that the one that convinced you using Azomite as 4% of your mix (5 cups is 4% of 1 cubic foot) is safe? 
 
Edit: I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but I'd be pretty shocked if you could show me how any of the studies or info I've posted indicate that Azomite is safe (for human health) to use at 4% of your soil mix to grow a plant you plant on smoking or otherwise consuming.

 

There's a lot of tension in this thread. Damn.

 

 
It literally shocked me that you would say 4-5 cups of Azomite is totally safe based on the studies and info that I have been posting.  That's why I said in my edit.... you're 100% free to disagree.... but I think you are severely misinterpreting the info in my posts if you feel that they indicate 4-5 cups of Azomite is safe to humans.  I don't know everything (or even remotely close), but I do read my own posts pretty well before putting them up.
 
I probably am tense on this topic right now.  I put a lot of thought and work into my posts on this topic, and it's kind of offensive when you post a one-liner claiming that my own science/posts somehow refute my basic hypothesis (that 4-5 cups could be unsafe).  I need you to support that kind of claim with more substance if you are going to stand behind it.  Sorry if you feel that my response was too brusque

 

 
You did the same to wet.  Clearly you think everyone is out to get you.  I do use fulvic/humic acids, but only as foliar or as a seed innoculant.  I am not pumping humic or fulvic acids into my soil biweekly.  I'm not worries about my 4/5 cups azomite.  Do you have a study showing quantity of alumina silicate in relation to quantities of humic or fulvic acids and rate of applications?  Perhaps rate of the breakdown of azomite has to be taken into effect as well.  Azomite takes years to break down.  If I am using a humic acid in my watering once every month am I okay?  Every two months? These are of course rhetorical questions; as much as you nip us in the butt for being "one lining" obnixicants what you don't realize is that there isn't enough data on this subject that exist yet.

 

 
I don't think anyone is out to get me.  You don't know anything about me, which I take great solace in lol.  I think that you made a post that, while not intended to offend, so severely mis-characterized my posts and so drastically over-simplified the issue, that it literally shocked me and forced me to respond.  Very different scenario than what happened with wet (which I will not be re-hashing).
 
 

 
Humic acid is produced by the decomposition taking place in your soil constantly.  Whether you pump it in or not.  And if that doesn't concern you... great!  I'm talking to people who either use Humic products, or are concerned about the humic content in their soil.
 
 

 
I've posted enough studies, statements from world-respected scientists, and plain science, to more than amply state my position and allow people to make their own minds up.  Sounds like yours is already made up, and great for you.  Not everyone's mind is made up, and some people want to gather facts first.
 
Those who argue Azomite won't be chelated by humic acids, and lead the the uptake of aluminum in plants.... what science have they posted?  What studies or statements by world-respected scientists?  Not a single one.  All they do is insist that I still haven't produced direct, documented evidence of Azomite leading to health problems in people or killing MJ plants.... while ignoring all of the indirect evidence that indicates this could contribute to health problems.
 

 
Actually I've stated that several times so far.  That is why I don't have direct, documented evidence.  That's why you don't have evidence that Azomite won't lead to an increase of soluble Aluminum in the soil.  That's why I've been using the term "Precautionary Principle."  From Wiki: "The precautionary principle or precautionary approach states that if an action or policy has a suspected risk of causing harm to the public or to the environment, in the absence of scientific consensus that the action or policy is harmful, the burden of proof that it is not harmful falls on those taking an action."
 
In many legal systems, including the European Union, utilization of the Precautionary Principle is made a statutory requirement.
 
I've produced solid indirect evidence that chelation of Azomite and subsequent Aluminum uptake by our MJ plants could and probably does occur.  What evidence have the Azomite-supporters produced, to fulfill their burden of proof under the precautionary principle, that Azomite won't harm human health?
 
None.  That's what I want the people who haven't made up their minds yet, to see.  If you've already made up your mind... kudos.

 

 
Earlier you said I "don't know you" then go on to say "you've made up your mind".  you're putting a  lot  of words in my mouth,more words than I even typed. It's quite obvious you seem to think you're the only one with divine knowledge on the subject and  your opinion can't swayed.  I don't have time to type paragraphs on paragraphs and cite sources for you all day.  I am trying to talk about this casually.  Please stop bashing others for not being thorough and stop being so defensive.  I'm done, killing my vibes dude.

 

 
I said "Sounds like yours (mind) is already made up" and "If you've already made up your mind."
 
On this page alone I've said "Nothing that I ever post will ever be gospel."
and "Everyone can make up their own mind whether or not they think Azomite and other high-aluminum amendments are worth it."
and "I mean.... obviously there are varying opinions and mine certainly isn't the only one."
and "Whether that concerns you.... whether it might hurt the health of you or your plant.... that's up to you to decide."
and "...but again... that's my opinion and not a universally-shared one."
and "I don't know everything (or even remotely close)"
and "I just want you to have the info to make an informed decision about the risks you take with you and your plants' health.  I'm not saying it's a major risk.... we all take risks every day..... using a cell phone is a risk.... we all have to decide for ourselves how severe each risk is, and whether it is worth it to us."
 
If that sounds like claiming divine knowledge and bashing people, then we must communicate differently.
 
When I saw this convo was starting to get worked up, I fully admitted the topic has been making me tense, and even apologized to you if I offended you with my brusque-ness. 
 
The people who defend Azomite have been constantly asking me to support my position on Azomite with science.... so I have been doing my best to do so.  If citing science to support my position comes off as claiming divine knowledge, I will once again fully disavow that purpose.  I am not infallible or even a soil biologist.  My knowledge is not divine, but human-made.  There are many people on this very website who know much more than me.  But my knowledge is based on science.  And I have ideas.
 
And I don't think it's too much to ask the very people who demand scientific documentation from me, to come up with some scientific documentation of their own.

 

 
No problem laramie..... sorry the info was buried in weirdness.  I don't understand it either.  I'm just trying to get health and safety info out there to people who might not otherwise know the facts in order to make their own decisions.  

 

 
No, my wife has a CCW and her own .45, so the arguments pretty much stay low key and mostly end with a "Yes Dear" on my part.
 
Wet