Vermicompost or worm castings; Is there a difference?

Discussion in 'Growing Organic Marijuana' started by Microbeman, Dec 12, 2011.

  1. MM

    As you've probably guessed I don't come into any discussions unless I've done my 'homework' and like you I'm familiar with Kelly's work back in the day of Worm Digest Magazine - a real shame it isn't active any longer.

    I don't have the tools necessary to evaluate each and every study proffered by any number of entomologists around the world. A body of work that really didn't take off until the early 1980's. Meaning that I have found that working on information from any number of sources, evaluating that information, comparing it to other studies - that's how I come to the conclusions that I do.

    I have one germane question on the subject of 'aging vermicompost' - in the world of thermal compost it is a tenet (generally) that letting a pile of compost sit for several weeks (some say several months) in order to achieve specific goals is what you want to do - how is that different from letting vermicompost sit to achieve the same goals?

    That's the question that is most interesting to me.

    Just curious as usual.

    LD
     
  2. LD. you've known me now for many years and I normally speak from two places. One being what I've read in studies, the other being what I've observed myself. My observance on the fungal populations/growth in fresh vermicompost over aged, is based on my own research, repeated time after time. I honestly do not know what others have experienced which may be contrary to this. I use direct microscopy.

    Of course I should comment that if I observe that a batch of vermicompost has gone dormant I have added foods [bran] to re-activate some of the microbes. so......

    As stated I know nothing of increased macronutrients possible from aging.
     
  3. MM

    Not arguing so we'll have to agree to disagree.

    My anecdotal experience is that when I purchase (purposely) 'aged' vermicompost I have enough 'visual' benefits to continue to move in that direction.

    Keep in mind that it was YOU that first turned me onto Luebke and all - LOL!!! See the monster that you created? That was from many of your posts at Jeff's group.

    Peace - no hostility at all on my end.

    LD
     

  4. Well my friend, for that to be applicable we would need to have disagreed on something. Without looking over everything in detail and off the top of my head, I believe I stated that I had always observed greater microbial activity including fungal hyphae in my fresh vermicompost. Because you have never seen my vermicompost, outside of its attributes as portrayed in videos through my microscope on my webpage, you cannot agree or disagree but can only take my word.

    Also because I stated that I basically have no clue as to whether aging vermicompost in general would possibly increase macronutrients, your conclusions that you have visual benefits (presumeably observed in plant vitality) are completely unchallenged and in my open opinion, may be absolutely correct. (I believe I discussed that different aspects may apply mixing into soil vs. making ACT)

    I don't know why the word 'hostility' would even enter the scenario. As you know I am always in pursuit of truth and have unintentionally stepped on a few large toes in that endeavor.

    Perhaps there are some attributes to aging vermicompost from a non-microbial perspective. Any salient information supportive of that would be appreciated.

    As you know, sometimes experts get wrapped in the trappings of their positions and relationships with other 'experts' and therein, sometimes errors are published.
     
  5. Sorry I overlooked this apparently. My take; There is a fairly different set of microorganisms at play with thermophilic compost. As you are well aware it goes through a radical heating process and then once that phase is completed, it may be of benefit to allow the pile to sit while the 'non-heat' microbes move in and populate the pile; (e.g. fungal hyphae). With vermicompost, at least using my system, there is no heating period and no screening or individual dropping so the desired microbial population is aleady there when the vermicompost is fresh.

    There are also thermophilic systems like the Luebke's where the whole process is accelerated (apparently) with more frequent turning and additions of clay powders. I think it is Midwest Biosystems using and teaching this in the USA. I believe they claim finished humus compost in a few weeks. Who knows? We can then get into the various definitions of humus. Some claim humus is devoid of microbes, some claim it is microbial food, some claim it is at a stage that cannot be further utilized by microbes. Whadaya gonna do?
     
  6. Devoid of microbes?

    I'm no scientist but I would think that it would still have plenty of food left in it for the microbes to be plenty happy?

    But then i guess we get into the fact that humus is a step beyond compost, but why wouldnt it still be a perfect home for microbial life?

    Are we saying, then, that the "Alaskan Humus", that is so commercially advertised is lifeless?

    John Evans at Bountea wouldnt want to hear this kind of talk *lol*

    jerry.
     
  7. If the good folks at Wiki are correct then humus still has plenty of life left in it.

    I would hate to think that it is lifeless.

    I would be devestated!!!

    aarrgghh!!!!


    :)

    jerry.
     
  8. Don't get us started on that one :devious::rolleyes:. Alaska Humus may have some humus in it but is certainly not pure humus. It is really not all that different than (northern) sphagnum peat moss (per my research) but both do contain lots of microbes and/or cysts and spores.

    Once I'm at my other computer I'll post a review which outlines two of the views on humus.

    I like to think of it as a microbial layaway plan. Their method of putting up preserves for consumption in hard times. It also has great effects on soil aggregation and CEC.

    Humus is often confused with organic matter and compost but who's to say anyway?
     
  9. I like that explanation of humus. A simple explanation for a simple mind...mine!
    Thanks Microbeman and I am excitedly awaiting your review.

    Sam
     

  10. There was some testing that was done comparing Alaska Humus to Canadian Sphagnum peat at microbeorganics.com. This link will take you the article which includes video clips.

    For those that haven't been there yet, this web site is a must read if you are considering brewing your own teas.

    chunk
     
  11. I like the explanation of humus and soil in general in the Teaming With Microbes book. Made it very clear for me.
     
  12. #33 WeeDroid, Dec 13, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2011
    Key points jerry from that wiki citation earlier in this topic:

    Bold emphasis above is mine.

    I may be reading this wrong, or too much into the above, but it seems there are a few variations of humus, including fulvic and humic acids. These later stages of humus are probably devoid of microbial life (but may contain spores and such) where as freshly developed humus has a lot going on as it is still being processed.
     
  13. Okay I've attached the review. Some of it is sort of easy reading...at least enough to get what the author is talking about.

    Is humus still breaking down, evolving = non-covalent bonded - molecules adhered aggregately
    OR
    Is humus a substance unto itself = covalent bonded (polymers) - molecules joined by shared electrons

    Maybe a little of each.

    Who stands up to know fully the language of nature?
     
  14. I was always under the assumption that humus is compost in its latest/latter stages/part of its life.

    In my mind humus is the very final stage - correct?

    But - if so, that wouldnt mean (in my mind) that it was devoid of life, just because its in its final stage?

    jerry.
     
  15. Coal, I believe, is basically a final stage of humus jerry. Think of it as a spectrum of states. I think over time, scientists will eventually develop different names for humus at different stages.

    Again, I think TWM has a very good explanation of humus.
     
  16. From what I understand, this use of the word has evolved from loose and free interpretation of the word. In the strictest sense of humus as 'originally' phrased it is a dark brown to black substance with a wet soil or gel-like consistency which does not have any reckognizable plant matter and does not consist of any single or multiple-celled life forms. Whether it is a food source for microorganisms is debated. [that is my belief]

    Because humus basically remains undefined many people attached different interpretations to it.
     
  17. #38 ForbinsAscent, Dec 15, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2011
    MM

    thanks for posting the topic for debate. that pdf file has had me stumped for a few days, some interesting parts in there though, and some day maybe i'll have a based reply for it

    i feel like i need to do some background reading though, or at least smoke less. Oh well, 1 day down.... x many to go before i can think clearly (probably not though).

    so I guess you'd say that much in the same way microbes attach to humus, similar (or not) to how humis attaches to minerals? separate entities, like a mini eco-system? you mostly think it's non covalent?
     
  18. Don't worry. I'm stumped as well and will likely still be learning or trying to the day that I die or go senile.
     
  19. [quote name='"Microbeman"']

    From what I understand, this use of the word has evolved from loose and free interpretation of the word. In the strictest sense of humus as 'originally' phrased it is a dark brown to black substance with a wet soil or gel-like consistency which does not have any reckognizable plant matter and does not consist of any single or multiple-celled life forms. Whether it is a food source for microorganisms is debated. [that is my belief]

    Because humus basically remains undefined many people attached different interpretations to it.[/quote]

    This is also my understanding of real ancient humus, which connot be reproduced or manufactured because it takes longer then a lifetime to become stable,and it is not compost. It's Basically void of all active microbial life and nutrients,kinda the opposite if compost, but it has the highest CEC abilities known to soil scientist.

    But like MM stated the term is thrown around like word organic.

    BeZ...V
     

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