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Recommend Me Some Scrog LED's


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#1
O0B9E9E1T

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I've been growing in this well ventilated box for over a year but these CFL bulbs just get too hot! I don't know what to look for when purchasing LEDs they all seem to be pinkish during vegetative stages? The light looks the same during veg/flowering it's just a matter of light cycle differences? If so why, I thought red tones are for flowering and blue is for vegetative yet all these lights only have around 10% blue in them. I only need about 90-120W or so in this space I think (18" wide x 13" deep x 24" tall)

I have read that they work for vegetative but won't produce the same during flowering, is that being compared to HID or CFLs? I was curious whether going from 18hrs LED to 12hrs 6500k CFL would have a better result with the sudden change, or use both?

There are 84W total in this photo (2x42w), I have recently upgraded to 120W (2x60w) and it's just too hot.
Posted Image

Edited by O0B9E9E1T, 07 March 2011 - 06:41 AM.


#2
StonyAce

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You are always better off using the lower wattage CFL's. You get more lumens per watt then the bigger ones....

You want 3000-5000 lumens of light per square foot. So for a 3 sq foot room you want somewhere between 9000-15000 lumens of light. For 2 square feet you want 6000-10000 lumens of light. Remember you want your plants to thrive not just stay alive. 2000 lumens per square foot will only keep your plants alive.

Most 23w cfl bulbs give about 1600 lumens
Most 27w cfl bulbs give about 1850 lumens
Most 42w cfl bulbs give about 2600 lumens

That being said if it was me and cfl was the olny option this is what I would do to make the best out of the watts/lumens. The smaller cfl bulbs actually produce more lumens/watt then most of the bigger bulbs.

The 23w cfl's run around 2-5.00 for a single bulb and produce 1600-1750 lumens. 1600 lumens/23w is about 69.5 lumens per watt.

The 42w cfl's run around 8-12.00 for a single bulb and produce 2600 lumens. 2600 lumens/42w is 61.9 lumens per watt. So you can see its better to use the 2x23w then it is to use 1x42w. You get 3200 lumens for 46w or 2600 for 42w.

So for 2 plants you want anywhere from 4-7 23w cfl's for 2 square feet of growing space at a min......or for a better yield you would go with 7-10 23w cfl's. This will give you the desired amount of lumens per square feet. Now if you look at the numbers and do the math you would use less watts and get a better yield using a 150w HPS.


I did this up for another post but I think you will get the idea.


As far as LED's I would look into something like Ghunter is using....
http://forum.grassci...fridge-3-a.html

Keep your lights at 18/6 as long as you want to veg. When ready to flower flip it to 12/12.

Good Luck

#3
O0B9E9E1T

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You are always better off using the lower wattage CFL's. You get more lumens per watt then the bigger ones....



I did this up for another post but I think you will get the idea.


As far as LED's I would look into something like Ghunter is using....
http://forum.grassci...fridge-3-a.html

Keep your lights at 18/6 as long as you want to veg. When ready to flower flip it to 12/12.

Good Luck


But what about heat factors? Does 4 small CFL ballasts generate more heat than 2 large ones?

Thanks for the LED fridge thread, I loved it! I may duplicate that lighting design.

As far as the LEDs I have two ideas, one is to cut back 4 hours from my CFLs. Use the LEDs for the first 2 hours (sunrise) then both LEDs & CFLs for 14 hours, then back to just the LED's for another 2 hours (sunset). That way I can have two 2-hour cycles with light and no fans (no heat) so I can flood with Co2, plus the LEDs look more like the sunrise and sunset anyway spectrum wise.

My other idea is to use both LEDs and CFLs but hang small clusters of LEDs down in the canopy at different heights, clusters of oh say 4-red, 1-blue, & 1 orange (good ratio?) These clusters will fill in for light the small CFLs on top don't reach, I just need to get my colors nm [nanometre] correct.


This light claims to have a color temperature of 3500k-6500k, why would you want both at the same time: http://www.ecrater.c...ponic-711-plant

Edited by O0B9E9E1T, 07 March 2011 - 11:17 PM.


#4
StonyAce

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But what about heat factors? Does 4 small CFL ballasts generate more heat than 2 large ones?

Thanks for the LED fridge thread, I loved it! I may duplicate that lighting design.

As far as the LEDs I have two ideas, one is to cut back 4 hours from my CFLs. Use the LEDs for the first 2 hours (sunrise) then both LEDs & CFLs for 14 hours, then back to just the LED's for another 2 hours (sunset). That way I can have two 2-hour cycles with light and no fans (no heat) so I can flood with Co2, plus the LEDs look more like the sunrise and sunset anyway spectrum wise.

My other idea is to use both LEDs and CFLs but hang small clusters of LEDs down in the canopy at different heights, clusters of oh say 4-red, 1-blue, & 1 orange (good ratio?) These clusters will fill in for light the small CFLs on top don't reach, I just need to get my colors nm [nanometre] correct.

This light claims to have a color temperature of 3500k-6500k, why would you want both at the same time: LED 120W 120 Watts Hydroponic 7:1:1 Plant Grow Light



Alot of people use the LED's to grow from seed to crop. Thats why some have a mixture.

As far as heat from the CFL's I would say it wouldnt be much of a difference.

The ideas you have are good. I would say try them both. For the colors of the LED's I would say blue, red, and white will be beter then blue, red, orange. I do not know that for sure because I do not use LED's. Thats just my guess.

#5
O0B9E9E1T

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Alot of people use the LED's to grow from seed to crop. Thats why some have a mixture.

As far as heat from the CFL's I would say it wouldnt be much of a difference.

The ideas you have are good. I would say try them both. For the colors of the LED's I would say blue, red, and white will be beter then blue, red, orange. I do not know that for sure because I do not use LED's. Thats just my guess.


Seems the third color in most light panels are orange & yellow. Red is either 630nm or 660nm, Blue 460nm, Yellow 595nm, Orange 610nm, White __nm?

Red- 630nm vs. 660nm? I read 630 for veg. and 660 for flowering.

Edited by O0B9E9E1T, 08 March 2011 - 01:40 AM.


#6
StonyAce

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Seems the third color in most light panels are orange & yellow. Red is either 630nm or 660nm, Blue 460nm, Yellow 595nm, Orange 610nm, White __nm?

Red- 630nm vs. 660nm? I read 630 for veg. and 660 for flowering.


In my opinion I would go with a Red, White, Blue setup over the Orange or Yellow. White will probabley be rated like 6,000k-14000k or something. I do not use led's so its just my opinion.

I also read the 630 is just better.

#7
TBM

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But what about heat factors? Does 4 small CFL ballasts generate more heat than 2 large ones?

Thanks for the LED fridge thread, I loved it! I may duplicate that lighting design.

As far as the LEDs I have two ideas, one is to cut back 4 hours from my CFLs. Use the LEDs for the first 2 hours (sunrise) then both LEDs & CFLs for 14 hours, then back to just the LED's for another 2 hours (sunset). That way I can have two 2-hour cycles with light and no fans (no heat) so I can flood with Co2, plus the LEDs look more like the sunrise and sunset anyway spectrum wise.

My other idea is to use both LEDs and CFLs but hang small clusters of LEDs down in the canopy at different heights, clusters of oh say 4-red, 1-blue, & 1 orange (good ratio?) These clusters will fill in for light the small CFLs on top don't reach, I just need to get my colors nm [nanometre] correct.


This light claims to have a color temperature of 3500k-6500k, why would you want both at the same time: LED 120W 120 Watts Hydroponic 7:1:1 Plant Grow Light


Rule of thumb is any CFL over 24 Watts will throw off more heat energy than light energy. This is why using large CFL bulbs is less efficient and hotter than more smaller bulbs.

#8
TBM

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Seems the third color in most light panels are orange & yellow. Red is either 630nm or 660nm, Blue 460nm, Yellow 595nm, Orange 610nm, White __nm?

Red- 630nm vs. 660nm? I read 630 for veg. and 660 for flowering.



You want a mixed ratio of 635nm : 660nm for optimum results. The exact ratio is not entirely known, but its proven the ratio of red to far red does affect growth. I use equal amounts of each in my DIY array along with 450nm blue and ~6500K cool whites. So far so good, week 3 of flower and buds look normal. I would guess during the last few weeks of flower is the real test to see how they dense up.

#9
O0B9E9E1T

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I think I will use a 90w LED UFO light in the middle which is what the REAL debate is. They sell these "quad-band" versions that are 90% red and 10% blue/other, THIS IS LIKE USING A 2700K LIGHT with little tads of 6500k/other to fill in missing spectrums:
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Wholesalers-2506RBOW-Quad-Band-Hydroponic-Light/dp/B002TZ6I14]Amazon.com: LED Wholesalers 2506RBOW Quad-Band Pro Hydroponic UFO LED Grow Light, 90 Watts: Patio, Lawn & Garden[/ame]
Posted Image

^This is based on the same concept of how you can veg a plant with 2700k bulbs but it does not really work the other way around with flowering under 6500k bulbs! Which is WHY they sell these, but in the description seem to run warmer:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Power-LED-Light-Veggie-2506BU/dp/B001VMDEHW]Amazon.com: UFO All Blue 90 Watt High Power LED Grow Light Veggie, 2506BU: Patio, Lawn & Garden[/ame]
Posted Image


Stop me if I am wrong and all, but once I realized what was going on I caught on quick. The market is new for LEDs so they don't want to advertise needing twice the money worth of their lights to "test" with especially if the blue one runs hotter. I am willing to bet that the blue UFO will work better in veg, as for flowering with LEDs that is a whole differing story of a loss in MOST situations. I'm wondering if it's worth buying both... switch to the quad-band when I switch over to 2700k CFLs



*Update*

Technical LED Color Chart

6500K is right on the chart! Also the 630nm red LEDs are high efficiency over the "ultra red" 660nm.

Maybe a quad-band in the middle and TWO of these 6500K 588 lumen LED bulbs (6w) on EACH side, x4 units = 2352 lumens (directional) for only 24w!:

http://www.slksupers...roducts_id=4559
Posted Image

Edited by O0B9E9E1T, 09 March 2011 - 10:26 PM.


#10
TBM

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The best ScroG LED lights are the ones you build yourself.

The commercial lamps follow the HID form factor. All that light packed in a smaller area. You want to spread the LEDs out at 1.5 to 2" spacings and use wider angles with lower wattage to keep the light low.

Here is my 1st LED test grow in a PC case I threw together. Notice how I'm using all of the footprint of the room for my light array? This leads to more efficient use of the light.

LED can be done, do your research and don't shoot for the moon your first time. Do not grow like you would with HID either, the plants grow differently under LED, seems they really eat up the Mg.

I have 40 Watts per square foot in this case with a 21 Watt array running. If I get over 21 grams that is over 1 gram per watt. Sounds good to me. I'm still nervous these LEDs won't pack on the weight, but I hope they add enough for me to be pleased with. I intend to go LED in my 3'x2' cab.

These are day 21 of flower. Now they are on day 27 with buds that are doubled in size and looking more resinous as the days pass. Seems like LED is on track with HID so far. Micro grows utilizing LED is the way to go right now. Heat is almost nil and the LED light really does well in small confined spaces like this.

If you want trees, you need 3W-5W emitters with lenses most likely. LEDs are meant for small short plants. The highly efficient 1W emitters are good at short SoG or ScroG setups. Commercial lamps usually use inefficient 3W and 5W emitters which throw off more heat than light, although the light output is a bit more than with the 1W emitters. LED is a technology that needs to be understood before you attempt to make a grow light.

One word of advice from me is stay away from UFO style lights. These are mass produced in China with the same crappy LEDs, just in different LED color configs and new company labels printed on the metal housing. Stick to efficient name brand high power emitters with known efficiency and data sheets.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Side View w light.jpg
  • Side View no light.jpg

Edited by TBM, 12 March 2011 - 04:08 PM.


#11
O0B9E9E1T

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The best ScroG LED lights are the ones you build yourself.

The commercial lamps follow the HID form factor. All that light packed in a smaller area. You want to spread the LEDs out at 1.5 to 2" spacings and use wider angles with lower wattage to keep the light low.

Here is my 1st LED test grow in a PC case I threw together. Notice how I'm using all of the footprint of the room for my light array? This leads to more efficient use of the light.

LED can be done, do your research and don't shoot for the moon your first time. Do not grow like you would with HID either, the plants grow differently under LED, seems they really eat up the Mg.

I have 40 Watts per square foot in this case with a 21 Watt array running. If I get over 21 grams that is over 1 gram per watt. Sounds good to me. I'm still nervous these LEDs won't pack on the weight, but I hope they add enough for me to be pleased with. I intend to go LED in my 3'x2' cab.

These are day 21 of flower. Now they are on day 27 with buds that are doubled in size and looking more resinous as the days pass. Seems like LED is on track with HID so far. Micro grows utilizing LED is the way to go right now. Heat is almost nil and the LED light really does well in small confined spaces like this.

If you want trees, you need 3W-5W emitters with lenses most likely. LEDs are meant for small short plants. The highly efficient 1W emitters are good at short SoG or ScroG setups. Commercial lamps usually use inefficient 3W and 5W emitters which throw off more heat than light, although the light output is a bit more than with the 1W emitters. LED is a technology that needs to be understood before you attempt to make a grow light.

One word of advice from me is stay away from UFO style lights. These are mass produced in China with the same crappy LEDs, just in different LED color configs and new company labels printed on the metal housing. Stick to efficient name brand high power emitters with known efficiency and data sheets.


Well for one a UFO would just barley fit in my cabinet, it's literally almost the same dimensions. I am looking for high efficiency and the lowest heat possible, so I'm not sure about the 3-5w LEDs

#12
TBM

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Well for one a UFO would just barley fit in my cabinet, it's literally almost the same dimensions. I am looking for high efficiency and the lowest heat possible, so I'm not sure about the 3-5w LEDs


If you go UFO, its just luck of the draw in what you get. If I may recommend one, it seems Gotham Hydro has had some positive reviews. You might want a couple 24W CFLs to go with it though is all.

#13
O0B9E9E1T

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If you go UFO, its just luck of the draw in what you get. If I may recommend one, it seems Gotham Hydro has had some positive reviews. You might want a couple 24W CFLs to go with it though is all.


This particular Amazon seller has 11 positive reviews: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Wholesalers-2506RBOW-Quad-Band-Hydroponic-Light/dp/B002TZ6I14/]Amazon.com: LED Wholesalers 2506RBOW Quad-Band Pro Hydroponic UFO LED Grow Light, 90 Watts: Patio, Lawn & Garden[/ame]


I was thinking more on the line of 4 additional 6w 6500k LED bulbs that are 588 lumens each (less heat) There is no other way to get 2,352 directional lumens for 24w.
Posted Image
^I am going to test these, they may make excellent "PC grow box" bulbs for my mothers and clones.

Edited by O0B9E9E1T, 13 March 2011 - 04:54 PM.


#14
krich73

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3W LEDs may help you out (Advanced LED Lights); check it out.

#15
O0B9E9E1T

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3W LEDs may help you out (Advanced LED Lights); check it out.


Having 3w LEDs over 1w LEDs is not very efficient, I just purchased a quad-band UFO lamp we will see how it works.

#16
krich73

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They may not be as efficient but 3W LEDs penetrate the canopy better than a 1W would. This helps in developing bigger buds. The best 1W Leds are made by Prosource or GrowlLed.

#17
O0B9E9E1T

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They may not be as efficient but 3W LEDs penetrate the canopy better than a 1W would. This helps in developing bigger buds. The best 1W Leds are made by Prosource or GrowlLed.


Dammit, I almost bought the GrowLed version too because it was the same price. The ProSource ones are a bit pricey. Maybe hang some random 1w LEDs IN the canopy?

#18
StonyAce

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This particular Amazon seller has 11 positive reviews: Amazon.com: LED Wholesalers 2506RBOW Quad-Band Pro Hydroponic UFO LED Grow Light, 90 Watts: Patio, Lawn & Garden


I was thinking more on the line of 4 additional 6w 6500k LED bulbs that are 588 lumens each (less heat) There is no other way to get 2,352 directional lumens for 24w.
Posted Image
^I am going to test these, they may make excellent "PC grow box" bulbs for my mothers and clones.



Please let me know how these work out. I wouldnt mind having these for my clones....

#19
Blimmer

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I love my 128w Penetrator from hydrogrow, my only complaint is the fan noise I was expecting it to be quieter performance wise I can only compare it to my 150w cfl i had previously and the yields are so much better proper dense buds I love it.

#20
O0B9E9E1T

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Please let me know how these work out. I wouldnt mind having these for my clones....


Will do, they are going to be my next purchase. I think they would work perfect for my clones as well in a confined PC case.

I love my 128w Penetrator from hydrogrow, my only complaint is the fan noise I was expecting it to be quieter performance wise I can only compare it to my 150w cfl i had previously and the yields are so much better proper dense buds I love it.


Never even heard of it, according to Google it looks like a UFO lamp. That was a recent concern myself, I just ordered a UFO and they sound noisy on Youtube :rolleyes:




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